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  #21  
Old 12-27-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

For that, I get people to kick on tempo. 3 kicks per beat. In fact, this is a mandatory step toward learning NAD, as the ability to remain on beat seems to cause its share of issues with several people.
Isn't it possible to to your NAD with a 2BK? (With small fins?)

(I don't understand all this kicking if the ultimate goal is a 2-beat kick.)
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Isn't it possible to to your NAD with a 2BK? (With small fins?)

(I don't understand all this kicking if the ultimate goal is a 2-beat kick.)
The answer is yes, although I haven't thoroughly tested this yet. The only time I saw it executed with a 2bk, was by a man who couldn't do other wise.

Reason for me mentioning about this particular drill in this particular thread, is that NAD is perfectly suited for improving sprinting stroke. It does well at timing the 6bk.
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2012
grandall grandall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
The answer is yes, although I haven't thoroughly tested this yet. The only time I saw it executed with a 2bk, was by a man who couldn't do other wise.

Reason for me mentioning about this particular drill in this particular thread, is that NAD is perfectly suited for improving sprinting stroke. It does well at timing the 6bk.
Charles,

Just to clarify so there is no confusion. You did mention in my previous thread 'which is more efficient the 2bk or 6bk at faster rates. Your reply here seems to contradict the one in the thread mentioned?
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by grandall View Post
Charles,

Just to clarify so there is no confusion. You did mention in my previous thread 'which is more efficient the 2bk or 6bk at faster rates. Your reply here seems to contradict the one in the thread mentioned?
Yeah, faster rate in distance swimming context. But no one sprints on a 2bk, as during the sprinting you can at least expect to boost your propulsion using the contribution from the leg kick.

So, a fast rate female distance swimmer (it's often women that are swimming at rates exceeding 80rpm in distance context) often relies on a 2bk, as 80x3 = 240kicks per minute if they wanted to go 6bk. Doesn't make much sense.

The same lady sprinting though, there's it's a different story.
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  #25  
Old 12-27-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

So, a fast rate female distance swimmer (it's often women that are swimming at rates exceeding 80rpm in distance context) often relies on a 2bk, as 80x3 = 240kicks per minute if they wanted to go 6bk. Doesn't make much sense.

The same lady sprinting though, there's it's a different story.
When you consider that most high caliber swimmers from collegiate level up can KICK 50 to 100m faster than I can swim it...makes sense for them to use that kick in their swimming. AT that point, the goal is not the least use of energy, but the fastest speed.

As distance of event increases, being economical to have your energy last the duration of the event is more and more important.
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  #26  
Old 12-27-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Oh yeah, well said.

And do they have the choice anyway?

The only path to success in the pool as of 2013 remains to learn very early, train at early age and persist in adulthood.

I haven't came across many kids arguing with their coach about the unfavorable impact of kicking too much on swimming Economy lol

They just kick. And this is still what produces the fastest swimmers on earth.

Fastest 100m kick (LCM) I've seen live so far is 1:09, so they can get quite fast. Fastest 50 strangely enough was booked by a young Master (ag 25-29 I believe), a huge Chinese guy, 31 flat for 50m kick (was worth 58 some over 100m freestyle scm). This guy was faster with a board, than with a pull over 50.
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  #27  
Old 12-29-2012
tsumrall tsumrall is offline
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After a few more swims since my last post, I am mostly certain of the root cause of this scissor kick. In no particular order:
Integrity of posture, especially in skate or transitioning from one side to the other:
1. Abs: not only do I think they need to be much stronger, but I need to learn how to use certain muscles at certain times, especially lower abs and obliques.
2. Tight lower back.
3. Tight hip flexors.
4. Tight hamstrings.

Kick modifications:
1. Loosen ankles more to keep feet pointed better
2. Keep the kick smaller
3. Originate kick from the hips (but it seems to me when I get it right that the kick actually originates in the lower obliques, not the hips, that's what I think I feel)

What little improvement I have noticed has come when I tuck the sacrum by contracting the glutes and abs simultaneously...and then with a tiny tiny bit of driving my upper chest down, I feel that a much smaller kick gets me much more propulsion. I don't know that it's so much the kick as much as the posture. But how do I sustain this kind of muscle contraction? Or do I need to?

Either being flat in the water or being stacked is easier-it requires little core contraction. However, skating straight and laser-like requires much more abdominal engagement and a little wiggle of the hips to generate the kick. Further, when I use the zoomer fins and try to skate, it overwhelms my abs and my ability to keep straight posture.

By the way, I think Suzanne kind of mentioned this, but it seems like the crooked kick vector is my body's way of getting me to go somewhat straight down the black line in spite of warped posture. But the point is the posture needs to be corrected, then the kick can be corrected.

At times, I have remained in streamline and used a 6bk to kick 25 in under 17 seconds and submerge a kick board under water and 6bk a 25 under 20 seconds. I think that's a good indication that its not my kick per se, it's my whole stroke and skating posture and integrity.

For what it's worth, I will post a couple more video's from last night and tonight.

Last edited by tsumrall : 12-29-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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  #28  
Old 12-29-2012
bx bx is offline
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Hi, you might get some benefit in straightening your swim posture from skating drill WITHOUT a kick, as kicking can mask errors.
This is Shinji:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz-46LZ6atQ

Re: Posture:- you might want to prioritize hip flexor stretches over hamstring stretches. Once your hip flexors are stretched, your hamstrings will no longer be tight. Twofer! Other posture work is always beneficial - eg. thoracic extensions over a foam roller to counteract hunchback posture.
eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQkVD0UQNg

good luck with it all!
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  #29  
Old 12-29-2012
tsumrall tsumrall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bx View Post
Re: Posture:- you might want to prioritize hip flexor stretches over hamstring stretches. Once your hip flexors are stretched, your hamstrings will no longer be tight. Twofer! Other posture work is always beneficial - eg. thoracic extensions over a foam roller to counteract hunchback posture.
eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxQkVD0UQNg
Ahh, good stuff, thank you! I will try all of this today.
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  #30  
Old 12-29-2012
tony0000 tony0000 is offline
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You might want to try getting hold of a swim snorkel. I always use one when I use a kick board. Because you're not raising your head, you really get a feel for what it feels like to kick when your body is flat on the water (balanced).

Good luck,

Tony
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