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  #51  
Old 12-17-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
I think that's classified as "your other left" Charles ;-)
Anyway, the novelty here, in comparison with a bunch of other male 4b kickers, is that he's issuing the 3 flutters whilst not breathing, and the single kick whilst breathing. And again, I can't help wondering... was Maglischo right all these years?
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  #52  
Old 12-17-2012
Ghul Ghul is offline
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I kick like that... but I always thought it was laziness on my part!
It seems natural to take a rest from kicking while breathing.
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  #53  
Old 12-21-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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I'd like to thank all those who contributed to this thread. And take the opportunity to ask one last (?) question: what would be the ideal position of each arm at the precise moment of the switch in direction of the rotation? I know many will probably feel that things should be the other way around - but I find it helpful to be able to think both ways.

And then, when the body is perfectly flat, what are the arms doing?

Thanks.
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  #54  
Old 12-22-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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This is an interesting diskussion...


Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
so now we are back in alignment with one of my previous posts...that the energy from each swing of the pendulum comes from what we do on the previous stroke. ...
Yes, of course, but...
The point of the pendulum movement in my understanding is not that the pendulum works on it's own without adding any extra force, but that you only need to add a relatively small amount of force to keep the pendulum going - when you add that force in the right time at the right point in the right direction.

In my swimming I noticed the following:
- there are TT speeds where it is easier for me, like when I go down from 1.20 to 0.9 it gets easier just below 1.10, and I often use one stroke less at 1.08 than at 1.20
- there are speeds (slower) where I get the feeling that the rotation flows into a pendulum like movement, which simply is awesome
- there are speeds (faster than 0.90) where I have the feeling that I strongly interrupt the rotation to force it into the other direction, which doesn't feel good at all

That brings me to the following thoughts:
- a pendulum like movement is a great energy saver
- it is another level of experience (and fun)
- it is as such relatively slow and I haven't got a clue yet how to maintain or invoke that at higher stroke rates.

But in general I believe that timing and rhythm, including a pendulum like movement, is one of the most important focus points after having established a relatively stable stroke and a relatively stable balance.

I used the 'Easy Freestyle DVD' to learn freestyle, and one of the most undervalued qualities of TI is that you can use it to systematically learn a good end efficient freestyle stroke from the scratch, even without coach.

But I am missing timing and rhythm, including pendulum like movements. I believe that the pendulum like movement really is a big thing and there should be more focus on it in TI.

I understand Doc Sue's points, but think that they do not really speak against trying to get such a pendulum rhythm.
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  #55  
Old 12-22-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
- there are speeds (slower) where I get the feeling that the rotation flows into a pendulum like movement, which simply is awesome
- there are speeds (faster than 0.90) where I have the feeling that I strongly interrupt the rotation to force it into the other direction, which doesn't feel good at all

That brings me to the following thoughts:
- a pendulum like movement is a great energy saver
- it is another level of experience (and fun)
- it is as such relatively slow and I haven't got a clue yet how to maintain or invoke that at higher stroke rates.
It is indeed an awesome feeling. My best memories of swimming the free, when I could afford to put enough time to be fit, is precisely this. Cheating. Finding ways to make it easier. And I wish to thank you so much for having put these wonderful words and thoughts on something I myself have had a hard time explaining. This idea that the key attribute of pendulum effect, is recycling of energy to make the whole mechanism more energy efficient.

I'm a bit ashamed to state this but I used to swim in a way that I later lost (after years of being away from swimming), and I couldn't get it back. Back then, I could really master front catch and back catch so to speak, a la popov, and that pendulum effect was like a huge heart beating. I would shift weight rhythmically from one support hand to the other; back to front really... Back pushes (with the switch effect) to front opposite which goes to back then pushes on the front hand catching. So you go back/switch to front catch to back catch to front catch to back catch, all that in a pendulum way. And on the front catch, you put your upper body weight on it. So in the end, you're barely pulling at all. Back push to front catch with body weight on it then roll over your catch which will become back push/shift to front catch body weight then roll the whole thing under your body to back push etc.... Lots of fun.

Again, I'd like to point out the fact that a swimmer like Yang definitely shows a little break in the effect, on his right arm typically, so hey. It's a feeling, a path, most possibly not the only one.

The best example of what I explained above is this man here, but not that many swimmers swim like that so..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIzBaSiWdRA

I've decided to stop even trying to find this stroke back. I'm thinking, if it's so difficult to master, how on heart em I ever be able to teach that stuff, and what's the point if I'm alone on my island LOL So my position on that is if you're naturally meant to swim this way, you'll find your way (not talking you, but in general), and I won't interfere. But don't expect me to teach that stuff (other maybe than through my drills if by coincidence they end up helping).

Oh, one last thing. It's the only analysis (of a smooth type swimmer I'd say) that doesn't give up on trying to not loose speed on catch. And I believe the reason for this, is that the exit (opposite hand) is so close to the catch which is made with a bit of body weight to sink it efficiently thus setting up for efficient pull through, that it's a reasonable goal to at least minimize the variation in velocity between each stroke.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-22-2012 at 01:00 AM.
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  #56  
Old 12-22-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
This is an interesting diskussion...

But I am missing timing and rhythm, including pendulum like movements. I believe that the pendulum like movement really is a big thing and there should be more focus on it in TI.

I understand Doc Sue's points, but think that they do not really speak against trying to get such a pendulum rhythm.

I'm not quite sure where I'm not getting my point across. The entire premise behind TI's latest DVD, the one that's been on the front page of the site for 3 or 4 years is Perpetual Motion. This comes from timing the recovery and rotation with gravity. You can call it a pendulum if you want...that's driven by gravity as well.

But I've seen all sorts of variations on "rhythmic swimming" and some of it aint so pretty!

In a pendulum the period is determined by the length of the rod or rope suspending the weight.

In swimming the period, given continuous motion, is the amount of body rotation. More rotation slower pendulum, less rotation faster pendulum. But if we then start tying tempo into the amount of body rotation we'll reach a difficult point on either side...one causing over rotation and one causing too much stress on the shoulder during the catch.

One of the challenging parts of swimming slowly, as has been discussed in another blog, is NOT giving in to the pendulum action while still maintaining a body rotation less than stacked. It challenges your balance not only front to back but also side to side.

Pendulum's vs. Free Forces of Gravity...it's all good and it's a fine way to think about swimming...perhaps "perpetual motion" isn't as clear as it should be?

We harness free forces before adding muscular forces to the swimming. By focusing on recovery sooner, rather than later, we can unlock the key that allows us to shift the weight and give in to the tug of gravity. But it's OK to resist that tug until all the moments are lined up just right.
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  #57  
Old 12-22-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I'm not quite sure where I'm not getting my point across. The entire premise behind TI's latest DVD, the one that's been on the front page of the site for 3 or 4 years is Perpetual Motion. This comes from timing the recovery and rotation with gravity. You can call it a pendulum if you want...that's driven by gravity as well.
I think your point did come across. From what I understand, TI's "perpetual motion" applies to the whole stroke, but not specifically to the rotation, and that's the difference with the pendulum-like rotation, which is "perpetual rotating motion". You said somewhere back that one must "hold" the extrême position before changing direction:

Quote:
The core must hold the angle until the recovery arm (swing or spear) is ready to enter then gravity can begin the next pendulum

And also:
Quote:
the pendulum analogy of never stopping the pendulum swing doesn't really stand up when you take into consideratino the willful changing of tempos and recovery speeds or arm styles.
And elsewhere
Quote:
Again this goes back to stopping rotation and gaining control vs. letting momentum aid you along the way
So, these are two different conceptions of rotation. And, as Charles pointed out several times, different strokes for different folks. I assume a good swimmer would be capable of swimming either way (depending on the speed).
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  #58  
Old 12-22-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Think the pendulum analogy is fine to have a picture when rotating. But as always in swimming we have to be careful about what we think we do know about...

Large pendulums like Focault's are nearly undamped oscillations just a few mm lift at the right moment and they will move forever.

But water ensures our rotation is highly damped all the way. The needed force for a continued motion for a damped pendulum is more complicated. It has to be finetuned better by proper sense than proper math. (As if there is anything easy in freestyle for a beginner...)

Best regards,
Werner
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  #59  
Old 12-22-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
I think your point did come across. From what I understand, TI's "perpetual motion" applies to the whole stroke, but not specifically to the rotation, and that's the difference with the pendulum-like rotation, which is "perpetual rotating motion". You said somewhere back that one must "hold" the extrême position before changing direction:




And also:


And elsewhere


So, these are two different conceptions of rotation. And, as Charles pointed out several times, different strokes for different folks. I assume a good swimmer would be capable of swimming either way (depending on the speed).
OK, great to see that you're reading! I stand by all of my comments. ;-) Sure different strokes, but one of the things i'm frequently correcting are hips falling flat before the shoulders go...this places a lot of stress on the shoulders, prevents leading with the elbow which moves the center of mass further back rather than forward, etc, etc.

Quote:
From what I understand, TI's "perpetual motion" applies to the whole stroke, but not specifically to the rotation,
Not at all..perpetual motion is the rotation side to side around the axis of the body that allows each stroke to move you forward by using the core rather than just the arms & legs.

The tug of gravity is intensified as the recovering arm comes forward, elbow leading on a wide track...this is the potential energy being actively increased as the recovery occurs. Time the rotation to maximize the kinetic energy of rotation while stroking at the proper time and shape.

If we are going to think about the pendulum we must remember that the width and mass of the body at the hips is different than the width and mass of the body across the shoulders where the arms are actively changing position each stroke.

If you want to visualize the pendulum, visualize the one across the shoulders...the hips should wait until the shoulders are ready to go.
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Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle


Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 12-22-2012 at 07:46 PM.
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  #60  
Old 12-22-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi Suzanne,

Quote:
...If you want to visualize the pendulum, visualize the one across the shoulders...the hips should wait until the shoulders are ready to go....
Just for clarification: Is this a difference from classical TI to Shinji's TI?

- Classical TI: Body should rotate like a log. Hips and shoulders are parallel all time of the stroke, hips wan't have to wait?

- Shinji's TI: If possible shoulders should rotate a little more than hips. When parallel to surface shoulders and hips should be parallel too for this moment and hips have to rotate with a smaller angle velocity?

Regards,
Werner
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