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  #31  
Old 12-16-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Not really. The spring has to be wound (given energy that it will give back) or the movement will stop. Even with no friction. The friction-less theoretical pendulum will go on forever.
so now we are back in alignment with one of my previous posts...that the energy from each swing of the pendulum comes from what we do on the previous stroke.

We teach kicking to skate position very early on...that kick is the energy that winds the spring (skate position). The core must hold the angle until the recovery arm (swing or spear) is ready to enter then gravity can begin the next pendulum...but it still needs a little boost of energy from the kick to aid with rotation otherwise you'd eventually just be pulling through the water for your rotation to continue
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  #32  
Old 12-16-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post


For now, the most useful application of this concept remains in the context of single arm drilling. I refused to comply with the idea of polluting this site with links that would be undesired.

I've created a little post on my personal board, entirely demilitarized (it's just a board, not promoting any other board). You guys tell me if it's still inappropriate.

http://triforums.vo3max.ca/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1125
Thanks, Charles!
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi Charles

Nice video! Is that you demonstrating or one of your swimmers? I was intrigued by your mention of the four-beat kick. I suppose I should experiment to find out, but which side do you recommend breathing on - the side with the single kick or the side with the three kicks? Or does it not really matter? I will have a chance to experiment in an hour or so.

Richard
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  #34  
Old 12-17-2012
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Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi Charles

Nice video! Is that you demonstrating or one of your swimmers? I was intrigued by your mention of the four-beat kick. I suppose I should experiment to find out, but which side do you recommend breathing on - the side with the single kick or the side with the three kicks? Or does it not really matter? I will have a chance to experiment in an hour or so.

Richard
Sun Yang kicks 3 on right leg on breathing side (right), and 1 on non breathing side. But this is mostly when breathing on 2's and he breathes right on 2's. He will revert to 2bk when he breathes on 3's and off the wall he breathes on 1's (yes each side) with 6bk thru one cycle. This is in 1500m. I wouldn't recommend 4bk until 2bk and 6bk were at some level of mastery.
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  #35  
Old 12-17-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Stuart, I may surprise you (as we don't see this very often), but Yang is issuing his 3 flutter kicks on the non breathing side more often than on the breathing side.

What's also surprising, is that this be in line with Maglischo's recommendation for a correctly timed 4bk. What's surprising here, is that over time swimmers have been pretty consistent in doing the opposite.

In other words, it's surprising that he'd be complying to a surprising recommendation whilst still getting surprising results ;-)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-17-2012 at 02:46 PM.
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  #36  
Old 12-17-2012
mjm mjm is offline
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Charles: I like the one-arm drill as well but use fins. I also do a "no arm" drill that I saw somewhere--probably you--to feel how to use the kick and core muscles to rotate and feel rotational forces.

I start on kicking on my side [with fins] with my left shoulder out of the water [45 degrees or so] both arms at my sides. Rotate using my kick and core so my RIGHT shoulder is out of the water. Breathe. Then rotate in the OPPOSITE direction until my left shoulder is out of the water. Proceed down the pool switching the rotation direction. Continuous motion required--no pausing while on your side!

The difficulty is in two areas: trying to keep head still and your body aligned and going straight while rotating. The other is moving against the forces that work to keep your rotating in the same direction when you try to switch to rotate in the opposite direction. Both skills are required while swimming freestyle.

I also find I can rotate easier right side to left side and not so coincidentaly I can breathe easier to the left that my right. I'm working on it.

I find that taking the arms out of the equation forces me to focus more on what the core and kick has to do in order to swim straight and effectively. YMMV.

mjm
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  #37  
Old 12-17-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by mjm View Post
Charles: I like the one-arm drill as well but use fins. I also do a "no arm" drill that I saw somewhere--probably you--to feel how to use the kick and core muscles to rotate and feel rotational forces.

I start on kicking on my side [with fins] with my left shoulder out of the water [45 degrees or so] both arms at my sides. Rotate using my kick and core so my RIGHT shoulder is out of the water. Breathe. Then rotate in the OPPOSITE direction until my left shoulder is out of the water. Proceed down the pool switching the rotation direction. Continuous motion required--no pausing while on your side!

The difficulty is in two areas: trying to keep head still and your body aligned and going straight while rotating. The other is moving against the forces that work to keep your rotating in the same direction when you try to switch to rotate in the opposite direction. Both skills are required while swimming freestyle.

I also find I can rotate easier right side to left side and not so coincidentaly I can breathe easier to the left that my right. I'm working on it.

I find that taking the arms out of the equation forces me to focus more on what the core and kick has to do in order to swim straight and effectively. YMMV.

mjm
One thing I really like about Charles' approach is his description of teaching swimming "from the inside out"...and certainly core rotation is at the heart of this. Indeed in the 10 lesson DVD, it's lesson 2. The big difference between the way charles does it and the way terry teaches it is that terry encourages a pause on each edge so that you can teach your core muscles where to engage and you have time to sort out things like head position, back not-arched, face & shoulders relaxed, etc.

I would imagine that for different people each approach works differently. There will be very athletic people with active movement backgrounds (martial arts, dance, baseball pitchers, golfers) who can do the momentum filled version very quickly and easily and STILL focus on all those elements. Most struggling swimmers I work with however, just end up flailing around and have lost all body control...so teh pause slows them down enough to make physical corrections.

Overall I've said before and I'll say it again...anythign you do int he water that requires control or mastery will make you a better swimmer...whether it's the NAD ala CC or the Core Rotation ala TL. Can you master BOTH versions???

TI brings the momentum into the equation later rather than sooner, but there's no reason a skilled individual with good proprioception (awareness of where their limbs are in space) can't become a skilled swimmer with either appraoch.

I have no doubt that Charles could easily manage a static rotated position with gentle kick and remain balanced and stable.
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #38  
Old 12-17-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Overall I've said before and I'll say it again...anythign you do int he water that requires control or mastery will make you a better swimmer...whether it's the NAD ala CC or the Core Rotation ala TL. Can you master BOTH versions???
Like I said, and it's an important item in understanding how we could, in the end, be working the same way, my studies on momentum best serves the Single Arm drill LEGO blocs concepts. With both arms involved, it seems that Yang proved that a pause (in BR) isn't a deal breaker.
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  #39  
Old 12-17-2012
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Stuart, I may surprise you (as we don't see this very often), but Yang is issuing his 3 flutter kicks on the non breathing side more often than on the breathing side.

What's also surprising, is that this be in line with Maglischo's recommendation for a correctly timed 4bk. What's surprising here, is that over time swimmers have been pretty consistent in doing the opposite.

In other words, it's surprising that he'd be complying to a surprising recommendation whilst still getting surprising results ;-)
If you look carefully Charles, he uses 3k right to drive him to left side spear to get a bigger breath when breathing on right side. You may be confused when he goes to 6bk to get air on each stroke, left breath/3kick - right breath/3kick. it's pretty amazing to watch Sun's strategy alternating kick (2bk, 4bk, 6bk) with breathing in the 1500.
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  #40  
Old 12-17-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
If you look carefully Charles, he uses 3k right to drive him to left side spear to get a bigger breath when breathing on right side. You may be confused when he goes to 6bk to get air on each stroke, left breath/3kick - right breath/3kick. it's pretty amazing to watch Sun's strategy alternating kick (2bk, 4bk, 6bk) with breathing in the 1500.
I know this is just a loop, but I believe it still depicts what Yang does very often (though not all the time):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uncOBURz-6o

Note: In 2011 though, this was constant, ie his standard way of kicking. In fact, I believe the above loop was made out of some footage that dates back to 2011.
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