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  #11  
Old 12-14-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Many thanks, Charles, for the detailed reply. Much appreciated. I see what you mean about it all ending up the same way, but it still often helps to think of the same thing a different way, and I find using BR as a sort of metronome (providing you don't cheat) an interesting approach. Speaking of which, does anyone using a TT synch the beep with the rotation - I mean with the switch, which is what would make most sense to me? What other timing could one use?
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  #12  
Old 12-14-2012
tsumrall tsumrall is offline
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Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Speaking of which, does anyone using a TT synch the beep with the rotation - I mean with the switch, which is what would make most sense to me? What other timing could one use?
Aquarius, I just started timing my hip switch with the TT beep instead of the hand entry and I kind of like it. But I am experimenting because I am not yet aware of the timing of everything else that is going on with my body in the water. It does seem to make more sense. Actually it occured to me about a week ago when I was reading something that Coach Suzanne said about that on another thread.

Coach Suzanne, I really enjoy your posts because they make the most sense to me. Your writing is clear and precise. I live in the South but I often think of coming up and buying some time with you because I think you could probably help me discover some big wins in my swimming technique.

Charles, I love the "public health issue" comment. Hilarious. I think you are right. By the way, I tried the IR drill from the other thread. Felt extremely foreign. I'm keeping at it and it's starting to feel a little more natural. Still very difficult.
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  #13  
Old 12-14-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post

In other words, if you're thinking of all this as a continuous or perpetual motion, wouldn't it be better to focus on kicking, or catching, or spearing at a given moment of the rotation, rather than, as suggested here, wait for the arm to be in such or such position to start the rotation (which means you've stopped it)?

Thanks!
Stopped the rotation or stopped the arm? The arms don't stop, but depending on the speed you are swimming or more precisely the tempo, the timing of the rotation will clearly change.

Here's how swimming is not like a pendulum however. In the air, a pendulum set in motion will continue to swing back and forth due to conservation of momentum (I think?) creating a period that changes based on the length of the pendulum.

However that assumes that there is little to no friction or air resistance.

When Swimming, there is MASSIVE friction and water resistance so any pendulum action only gets set up due to the energy we impart on the previous stroke. THis energy comes from both the kick timing and the underwater portion of the stroke along with the spearing action.

There is no continuous motion of swimming without some element of energy input on every single stroke. We seek to minimize these energy inputs and maximize gravity with each change in tempo or speed, os that when we choose to add muscular energy, it's converted into forward motion, rather than rotational speed.

So while the pendulum idea is useful...and finding a rhythmic tempo is an ideal goal, the pendulum analogy of never stopping the pendulum swing doesn't really stand up when you take into consideratino the willful changing of tempos and recovery speeds or arm styles.

That is, we can't change the effective "length" of our pendulum except by choosing to change some ohter aspect of the stroke. So we maintain control of the period of oscillation, rather than are subject to it.
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  #14  
Old 12-14-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by tsumrall View Post

Coach Suzanne, I really enjoy your posts because they make the most sense to me. Your writing is clear and precise. I live in the South but I often think of coming up and buying some time with you because I think you could probably help me discover some big wins in my swimming technique.
thank you very much!!! Feel free to come up anytime. :)
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Level 3 USAT Coach
USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #15  
Old 12-15-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Here's how swimming is not like a pendulum however. In the air, a pendulum set in motion will continue to swing back and forth due to conservation of momentum (I think?) creating a period that changes based on the length of the pendulum.

However that assumes that there is little to no friction or air resistance.
Well the drag component is a fact of life, just like death and taxes.

Most expensive pendulum will stop on earth, unless a bit of extra energy gets thrown to the action to account for drag (99% of the time air friction). Therefore the pendulum effect is a theoretical concept that works only in vaccum.

The part of the Pendulum effect that the body rotation should inherit from in order to be able claiming exploiting serape effect in my opinion, is really this particular point where there's change in direction. Inheriting is not the best term, as in fact the swimmer doesn't benefit from pendulum effect, he should rather trigger it. The effect I believe, is virtually the same except for some energy being thrown to the effort, but the nice thing is that it's the abs (obliques mostly) that do this job.

My opinion hip rotation is possible if we engage the core, and more specifically abs/obliques. At the point where rotation needs to switch, core engagement is required to trigger the change of direction.

So. In sequence. Body rolls upward then engagement of the obliques (mostly) which triggers the change of direction. Then a full body side (upper body side), this has some weight, it's solid, it's quite a mass, and it sinks quite easily. When you swing or switch a body side sinks. Add now the weight of the arm. All of a sudden you end up with a lot of weight going down. Opposite side then goes up using some of it's energy. My proposal is that if the momentum is not loss when triggering the change of direction, it'll be easier to use this energy and perform the so called weight shift more effectively.

Simulated pendulum effect maybe?

Loose the momentum, single arm drill really becomes difficult.

With momentum, you can single arm with a pull

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7b-dgpUXhU

Weight shift? for those for whom it ain't clear?

This was the second attempt. On the first, my other arm was held ridiculously high! First, I don't train in the pool. So all my clips are always shot out of shape, no warmup. My annual volume is my overall demo volume. So I can't cheat. I didn't practice this single arm with a pull thing.

So I go by feel. And what I needed to feel that night, was a body roll that was high enough (passive arm), to accumulate enough weight and when I'm putting that weight (again, passive arm) down, the pulling arm is flushing water backward and benefit from this weight shift.

And I swear. In order to do this, I must be very careful with the timing of the pendulum effect.

The feeling is quite simple. I must not rush change of dir, because if body side goes up effortless, and that it can go this way up to 45-60deg, or course I need a passive arm that cheats (and it's underwater sculling on top of that), then I don't necessarily cancel this motion.

Then as I feel that I reach the peak, NOW it's time to induce this extra energy to trigger pendulum effect which which then allow my opposite arm to easily produce tons of torque.

So definitely, for me swimming the free is all around br, and weight that gets shifts from side to side, respecting the natural rythme of the pendulum effect to ensure that we recycle as much free energy as possible.
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  #16  
Old 12-15-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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And now the other part.

The analogy. At some point, just focus on my left shoulder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7KiB7Rp7jU

(I have no pride, I know...)

Now. If you really want to get the point every body, stand up. Simple. Take one arm only, bringing in front of you. aligned with the shoulder. In front of it. Simple?

Both feet hip width. Now prepare to do the twist. Twsit hips as much as you can along with should bring that arm in front of you. Take that shoulder as far in front as possible, in respect with your hip flex. Please do not break a hip there. That'd make me feel bad.

Noticed what happened to that arm? It's now longer in front. Reaches further. Now do the opposite. Bring that arm back. Short now.

It means when you are skate position real tall and then all of the sudden you rotate the body on the other side, help with the weight of the opposite side (as seen in above single arm drill), the arm is getting shorter in the equation, so just body rotation/weight alone is bringing that arm backward (or whatever, I'll use this straight definition for sake of explaining my concept). So body rotation is extremely powerful source of energy, when already being streamlined and in balance, as long as the arms are correctly synchronized along with it.

Obviously when swimming with 2 arms, then the whole weight of the opposite arm is added. Some swimmers at higher rate kind of sink the head of an opponent on catch, something I must admit teaching in some circumstances. That's really total weight shift. Feels as if you were swimming onto someone.

And like I told aquarius, kick (2bk) very often contributes to helping triggering the change of direction as well. Contributes to add more extra energy. It's been observed in some swimmers, like Yang for instance, that some use the single kick per cycle pattern to readjust body position, kind of pushing their hips up toward the surface. So kick will never only contribute to BR. It's main role remain controling body position.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-15-2012 at 03:48 AM.
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  #17  
Old 12-15-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I had a lot of pendulum thoughts in the summer, especially in the wet suit, or rather for me it was slippery soap swaying up and down the sides of a bath tub.

Recently I understand Suzanne's point more that the movement is more controlled on account of friction in water so I feel its closer in movement to a balance wheel than a pendulum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dao0mbAbNLE&t=0m59s

the movement is still smooth but there is a point of rest at each side. I am also visualising the glutes as controlling this movement and balance than my skinny little hip bone.
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  #18  
Old 12-15-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Default The Chicken or The egg

Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7KiB7Rp7jU

(I have no pride, I know...)
Which comes first, the conditioning or the swim times?

Charles, I wonder if I will swim as fast as you when I am in the same shape as you or if I will be in the same shape as you when I swim as fast as you?
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  #19  
Old 12-15-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Stopped the rotation or stopped the arm?
Stop the rotation. This was my original question, and I must confess I still don't understand your reply. Does TI advocate a continuous rotation, pendulum-like, or a discontinuous rotation, going from one "skating" position to another, with a pause (of the rotation only), however short, in this skating position? Or perhaps this question makes no sense at all in TI lingo?

(Of course, maintaining this pendulum-like rotation requires energy, since we're in water, but my point is that a continuous rotation requires less energy than stopping in the skating position and starting again. Not that am not willing to spend more energy, if there is some other benefit - hence my question!)
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  #20  
Old 12-15-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Stop the rotation. This was my original question, and I must confess I still don't understand your reply. Does TI advocate a continuous rotation, pendulum-like, or a discontinuous rotation, going from one "skating" position to another, with a pause (of the rotation only), however short, in this skating position? Or perhaps this question makes no sense at all in TI lingo?

(Of course, maintaining this pendulum-like rotation requires energy, since we're in water, but my point is that a continuous rotation requires less energy than stopping in the skating position and starting again. Not that am not willing to spend more energy, if there is some other benefit - hence my question!)
I would guess that you would have to pause the rotation (or I would prefer to say place it) if you are going to have a patient lead hand as one needs the other?
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