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  #1  
Old 12-13-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Default Continuous rotation?

Does TI require a continuous rotation, i.e. a pendulum-like motion that never stops in a given position? Or does one rotate to one side, stay there for a certain time, however short, before rolling back down and to the other side?
The pendulum-rotation requires much less energy, since it lets gravity operate and do most of the work. But I'm wondering how kosher it is.

Thanks.
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Old 12-13-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Does TI require a continuous rotation, i.e. a pendulum-like motion that never stops in a given position? Or does one rotate to one side, stay there for a certain time, however short, before rolling back down and to the other side?
The pendulum-rotation requires much less energy, since it lets gravity operate and do most of the work. But I'm wondering how kosher it is.

Thanks.
Being flat is the slowest part of the stroke. "Don't hang out in slow places". It requires activation of the spinal stabilizers until you're ready to convert the potential energy into kinetic energy. chances are if you just pendulum as you describe you're letting gravity pull you flat before the stroke is set up to take advantage of it.
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  #3  
Old 12-13-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Being flat is the slowest part of the stroke. "Don't hang out in slow places". It requires activation of the spinal stabilizers until you're ready to convert the potential energy into kinetic energy. chances are if you just pendulum as you describe you're letting gravity pull you flat before the stroke is set up to take advantage of it.
Gravity doesn't pull you flat in a pendulum motion, but from one side to the other. And the motion is at it's fatest precisely in the middle. The slowest part is on each side. Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be timed with the stroke, on the contrary.

I think Charles is the only one I recall mentioning this pendulum-like rotation.

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Old 12-13-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Gravity doesn't pull you flat in a pendulum motion, but from one side to the other. And the motion is at it's fatest precisely in the middle. The slowest part is on each side. Which doesn't mean it shouldn't be timed with the stroke, on the contrary.

I think Charles is the only one I recall mentioning this pendulum-like rotation.

yes the fastest part of the pendulum is the middle part, if you are referring to the speed of the pendulum.

But we are talking about the cross sectional axis of the body moving forward through the water, and the need for our arms and shoulders to create an anchor which turns into forward motion. That forward motion encounters the least resistance when the pendulum motion is still, or when we are up on one edge at a slight angle (30-60 degrees). Maximize low drag positions and move quickly through high drag positions. Don't let gravity take you before you're ready....you're in control.

This doesn't mean you can't "ride a dangerous edge", but when gravity pulls you'd better have an anchor set to take advantage of it, or you're losing ground to drag.
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  #5  
Old 12-13-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Charles is obeing to the pendulum motion as it's at the very heart of his way of teaching the free. There's no outstanding doubt about that.

Stopping this pendulum motion for whatever reason is equivalent to trying to interfere with your hear beating. The body must roll, just like the heart must beat.

The most apparent and very clear application of this has to be whilst working single arm drill. A lot of web clip demos often see the swimmer pausing from side to side. I start to itch every time I see these.

In fact, I disbelieve in the serape effect, without the pendulum effect. On the other hand, when this pendulum effect is carefully handle, the serape effect is very hard to refute.

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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
but when gravity pulls you'd better have an anchor set to take advantage of it, or you're losing ground to drag.
True dat.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 12-13-2012 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I'm ready for dueling videos of athletes pendulum without regard to the rest of the stroke! I just wanted to be clear with the OP that while the fastest rotational momentum is when the body is flat, the least forward drag is presented on an edge.

Over and over we see recovery arm coming through allowing the torso to fall flat too soon while the body gets twisted and the lead arm tries to HEC from a flat torso with a high elbow. Ouchies all around. ;)

There must be a moment of hesitation to allow the recovery arm to get to it's entry position until the right moment...this will look different at different tempos.

Of course the whole idea of "perpetual motion" freestyle comes from taking advantage of gravity to get free motion before adding muscular effort.
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Last edited by CoachSuzanne : 12-13-2012 at 10:05 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-14-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post

There must be a moment of hesitation to allow the recovery arm to get to it's entry position until the right moment...this will look different at different tempos.

Of course the whole idea of "perpetual motion" freestyle comes from taking advantage of gravity to get free motion before adding muscular effort.
Hesitation, or an actual pause, however short, on the edge? This was my question. A pendulum never pauses, though it may seem to "hesitate", since the verb doesn't refer to any precise physical reality, but more to one's perception of it.
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Old 12-14-2012
aquarius aquarius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Charles is obeing to the pendulum motion as it's at the very heart of his way of teaching the free. There's no outstanding doubt about that.

Stopping this pendulum motion for whatever reason is equivalent to trying to interfere with your hear beating. The body must roll, just like the heart must beat.

The most apparent and very clear application of this has to be whilst working single arm drill. A lot of web clip demos often see the swimmer pausing from side to side. I start to itch every time I see these.

In fact, I disbelieve in the serape effect, without the pendulum effect. On the other hand, when this pendulum effect is carefully handle, the serape effect is very hard to refute.
Thank you, Charles. Wouldn't it make sense, then, to time the rest of the stroke on the rotation - in particular on the critical moment when the movement is reversed?

If you're doing a 2BK, where, on the pendulum's course, would you locate the kick? And the spearing? And the actual pulling (though I know this is a naugthy word here) or pushing, or whatever you call the propulsive movement of the arm?

In other words, if you're thinking of all this as a continuous or perpetual motion, wouldn't it be better to focus on kicking, or catching, or spearing at a given moment of the rotation, rather than, as suggested here, wait for the arm to be in such or such position to start the rotation (which means you've stopped it)?

Thanks!
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  #9  
Old 12-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
Thank you, Charles. Wouldn't it make sense, then, to time the rest of the stroke on the rotation - in particular on the critical moment when the movement is reversed?
Yes it does make sense to me, although it doesn't mean it's the only sense that can be made out of freestyle stroke. I mean, defining its timing using I donno, one are in relation to the other, or and one arm in relation to opposite leg (2bk), it's all good.

But as far as I'm concern and there's nothing I can do about it, it's all timed around the BR. It's useful for me as then the principles hold with one arm only, working with a pull, with any kicking pattern, etc. For sprint, for distance, it makes little diff to me. Leaves more room for individuality, though again there, it's a matter of preferences. Etc...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
If you're doing a 2BK, where, on the pendulum's course, would you locate the kick? And the spearing? And the actual pulling (though I know this is a naugthy word here) or pushing, or whatever you call the propulsive movement of the arm?
The arms for me is a big focus. And the principle is simple. You have to have finished with the skating catching business once pendulum effect is about to shift side. This, to me is not negociable. It applies for all, no matter the stroke type. Great great top level swimmers will wait til the very end, that's fine. They can sustain weird upper body stretches.

In fact, this is one area where I find the TI stroke cool. It promotes deeper skate position, which helps meeting this criteria. It's easier to be ready to pull when body rolls back to the other side, when you're skating deeper.

I like the good old barrel analogy. As long as one has rolled over the barrel on time... Some roll over it, but too late (again, in relation to BR). They can no longer engage right muscle and move their body over it efficiently, and/or then lost speed whilst rolling over it, then regain momentum fortunately, using the right muscles (or almost).

Once the body weight carried over the barrel is handled in time, I won't focus that much on timing of pull through in relation to BR. In 2bk context (since it's your question), I focus rather on kick vs same side pull, and/or kick vs opposite side pull, depending on requirements.

As for kick in relation to BR, I have hard time finding applications where you'd want the kick to happen after the switch. Kick best serves its purposes when times slightly prior the shift. For 2 reasons: 1) it helps pushing the hips slightly up toward the surface, and obviously it helps the switch itself.

There's an intimate relationship between 2bk's kick and hip. These components better learn to work together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aquarius View Post
In other words, if you're thinking of all this as a continuous or perpetual motion, wouldn't it be better to focus on kicking, or catching, or spearing at a given moment of the rotation, rather than, as suggested here, wait for the arm to be in such or such position to start the rotation (which means you've stopped it)?
Better? No not necessarily. For me it is.

You know, I'll be honest, for me that stuff really becomes important when time to move away from 1:30/100m of swim pace down to close to if not under 1:20. Those already there generally apply these principles already.

But again, swimmers will learn this by themselves, or from people that don't see things this way, as long as one's vision on timing makes sense, there's a big chance that timing the stroke one way, ends up timing it several other valid ways at the same time.
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  #10  
Old 12-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Another hidden element which pertains to timing of br with arm pull, and that one really sucks for most, is the dynamics in term of arm backward velocity from negative velocity (ie, whilst skating your hand doesn't move backward at all, it's moving forward) to say, top backward speed.

What I spend most of my overall time teaching, is that the shift from 0 velocity to catch to pull through must be progressive. People glide, then rush pulling. It's almost a public heath issue.
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