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  #1  
Old 11-07-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Default TI Catch = TRADITIONAL Swimming Catch ?

Total Immersion Freestyle is very different from the Traditional method taught at the Pool.

I am wondering if there are any similarities from a technique standpoint.

For example, is the TI Catch/pull/push arm movement the same as what Traditional Coaches teach?

Thanks. ALEX
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2011
RobM77 RobM77 is offline
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I posted about this a while ago, having noticed that Shinji and Terry both catch with an almost straight arm, like a one bladed paddle steamer, exerting force downwards as well as backwards providing forward motion, which is of course a waste of energy compared to the early vertical forearm technique, which gets the downward stage over and done with early and then puts the swimmer's effort into forward motion.

Terry wrote a very good reply to this, stating that the ideal catch was indeed an early vertical forearm, such as Rebecca Adlington has mastered, however this is extremely difficult to achieve, especially with advancing age. I know I can't do it very well, and I'm sure I speak for most of us here.
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  #3  
Old 11-08-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvinmJg0ykQ

I am a bit confused by this. I feel I have learnt ok evf in the last few weeks but what I am doing now would be easy for anyone to do regardless of age.

I spent a couple of months struggling to rotate my should into EVF and that was hard but I don't think that is what rebecca is doing in the video above or ian thorpe in the underwater footage I have seen of him.

This is the movement I make.

With your elbow forward of the eyes, pretend to grasp your nipple with your thumb and forefinger. then make an outward swing with the forearm holding the elbow still or allowing it to rise an inch (how i imagine a farmer sowing seed in the old days), you can repeat this in and out with relaxation and comfort. As the hand comes halfway in again this to me is EVF position and the motion rebecca is doing? There is no rotation of the shoulder involved. It is therefore imperative to cast your spearing hand slightly wider than your shoulder so that as you form the catch by breaking the elbow the hand is level with the shoulders at the halfway point to give you nice EVF and leverage as the opposite arm comes in to spear.

If that description doesn't make sense then I can try to make a webvid of it.

Last edited by andyinnorway : 11-08-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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  #4  
Old 11-08-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
If that description doesn't make sense then I can try to make a webvid of it.
Yes, please !
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  #5  
Old 11-08-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
...
I am a bit confused by this. ...

With your elbow forward of the eyes, pretend to grasp your nipple with your thumb and forefinger. then make an outward swing with the forearm holding the elbow still or allowing it to rise an inch (how i imagine a farmer sowing seed in the old days), you can repeat this in and out with relaxation and comfort. As the hand comes halfway in again this to me is EVF position and the motion rebecca is doing? There is no rotation of the shoulder involved. It is therefore imperative to cast your spearing hand slightly wider than your shoulder so that as you form the catch by breaking the elbow the hand is level with the shoulders at the halfway point to give you nice EVF and leverage as the opposite arm comes in to spear.

If that description doesn't make sense then I can try to make a webvid of it.
Doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how you can do an EVF without an quiet extreme inward rotation of the shoulder.

Try this: Stand (on land) (in front of a mirror) and raise your arm straight in the air, like a spearing movement. Now try to leave you entire upper arm where it is an get the forearm 90 degrees down, pointing directly in front of you. Your elbow has to move out and your shoulder rotates internally. Still your forearm will leave it's straight up posistion. Since the E in EVF means early, you have to get the forearm in the 90 position as early as possible, which in this standing position means as high above your head as possible. When I do that I feel a remarkable strain in my shoulders.
That's why I think as a non-competetive swimmer we shouldn't aim for an EVF. Better use the HEC. Hugh...
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  #6  
Old 11-09-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Doesn't make sense to me. I don't see how you can do an EVF without an quiet extreme inward rotation of the shoulder.

Try this: Stand (on land) (in front of a mirror) and raise your arm straight in the air, like a spearing movement. Now try to leave you entire upper arm where it is an get the forearm 90 degrees down, pointing directly in front of you. Your elbow has to move out and your shoulder rotates internally. Still your forearm will leave it's straight up posistion. Since the E in EVF means early, you have to get the forearm in the 90 position as early as possible, which in this standing position means as high above your head as possible. When I do that I feel a remarkable strain in my shoulders.
That's why I think as a non-competetive swimmer we shouldn't aim for an EVF. Better use the HEC. Hugh...
Haschu, I agree with you that in the EVF there is the early initiation of the catch even before the other arm enters the water as seen in the above video, but in the Front Quadrant timing that we practice we hold the patient lead hand until the other arm enters thereby increasing the glide for slight duration and thereby reducing the drag and improving efficiency.What are your views on the ideal FQ timing the way we practice(Not sprinting)?When does the lead hand initiate the catch?

As you said the in the dry land exercises we do do not mimic our action in water(for example many factors like hip drive.. are not accounted).For a best understanding of attaining EVF or HEC look at the explanation given by CoachTodd in this post.Hope this helps.

Last edited by arunks : 11-09-2011 at 05:16 AM.
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  #7  
Old 11-09-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Default Video as promised

Ah my anonymity is gone.

This is all new to me but at least if I share my thinking it will either help someone else or I will get some good advice on whats wrong.

regards
Andy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTR-MVlz_HA

I didnt say on the video but the movement is also how I see classical dancers when they do arm extensions, I think its the tilt in the forearm that makes all the difference.

hmmm????
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  #8  
Old 11-09-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Thanks for the video Andy.

Now what you described in your post makes sense.

Do you feel this dry land movement is the same as the one you're doing in the water ?

I'm gonna practice it anyway.
thanks again
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  #9  
Old 11-09-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Hi unanonimous,

Nice video. I think basically you are right with that tilt, although the point is to do it in the elbow only, not in the wrist.

Nevertheless, the movement you are demonstrating is nice for demonstrating purposes, but it is not what you do in water. In the water you wouldn't extend your arm in front of you, but you would start having your arm extended right above your head. That makes it even more difficult and will not work at all without that 'tilt' in the elbow.
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I think the movement is similar in the water, I also practice it lying over the edge of a bed when I am in a hotel room (as they have high beds) and get my elbow to dangle over the edge so that when I make the catch my forearm rests vertically on the bed edge and I can feel the lats engage as I apply pressure.

The best learning for me is to do the stroke backwards. Start with your arm in EVF and then you see how easy it is to move back to spear and vice versa.
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