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  #11  
Old 08-13-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeparra3 View Post
I didn't know that you don't count the first pull. I always count it. That means my stroke count is actually one less than I thought it was!!
yep take heart that you're automatically one stroke more efficient now!
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  #12  
Old 08-13-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kittyhawksurf View Post
Funny...moderate 25-30 secs for 25 yards. It has taken me 4 months of swimming 4 times a week to get my 100 meter sets at 1:35. My stroke count is actually about 21. Should I try to do less strokes than 21? Pull harder and glide more?
Hi Kittyhawksurf,

1:35 is a pretty good cruise speed for 100m (for my standards at least)
I guess it all depends on at least 2 parameters:
a. You height
b. The current Stroke Rate you use to achieve 1:35 for 100m

I assume your current Stroke Rate is quite fast.
Rather than "Pull harder and glide more".... I would say:
"Stroke slower, with more balance/streamlining/propulsion and glide more"

ALEX
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2011
gladtobedifferent gladtobedifferent is offline
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gladtobedifferent
Default strokes and swim rate

Listen I can only dream of 1:25 for 100m !! I have been doing TI for nearly 6 months and am at 2 mins 20 ish for each 400m set in a session !
I started at 37 strokes per length in March and am down to between 24 and 28 per length
I would love to know how to get my strokes per length down to 20-22 - any suggestions as to how I could do this ?
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  #14  
Old 08-16-2011
Alex-SG Alex-SG is offline
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What is the exact definition of SPL?
It takes me 16 strokes per 25m but I have a "zero" push-off, "zero" initial speed and I use a 2BK.
Some people start counting strokes after covering the 1st 5m under water....

I would also think it is important to report SR and Height together with SPL.

I am 6'3'' (1m91cm) and swim at SR=1.60.
Clearly someone who also takes 16 strokes but is 6'0'' at SR=1.20 is much better than me. ALEX

Last edited by Alex-SG : 08-16-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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  #15  
Old 08-16-2011
bx bx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gladtobedifferent View Post
I would love to know how to get my strokes per length down to 20-22 - any suggestions as to how I could do this ?
You know what's coming! Better balance, better streamlining. Or grow 6 inches taller...

BTW Check you're not doing the "drill thing" of entering with the recovering hand close to your head in fullstroke, else you're shorting your stroke length.

Enter as far forwards as possible whilst still being able to enter fingers, then forearm then upper arm, in that order, cleanly.
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  #16  
Old 08-16-2011
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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Default Stroke Counts

Alex,

Having followed this topic closely, I've found there to be a much variation as to how we determine.

In general you can look to the following.


1. When pushing off do not count the first pull or incomplete stroke this is considered set up.

2. If using a TT consider three beeps for set up and starting first stroke.

3. One stroke equals one complete arm cycle, left equals one, right equals one.

Too often we get caught up in the comparison with others to SPL's, unless all the variables are equal, there can be no true comparable. The more realistic way to view it is how we progress within our own programs.

FYI a 16 SPL for 25m with no push off would be considered on the good end of the scale. Again many variables need to be figures in.


Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy

Last edited by westyswoods : 08-16-2011 at 11:03 AM. Reason: grammar
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  #17  
Old 08-16-2011
RobM77 RobM77 is offline
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Does anyone have any thoughts or links to information on SPL vs efficiency? Surely there's an efficiency peak point for SPL, above which each stroke isn't doing enough, but below which efficiency drops due to overgliding? I presume this peak will vary between people and with one's pace?
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  #18  
Old 08-16-2011
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi RobM77,

it's not the pure TI-doctrine, but you may have a look at

http://www.swimsmooth.com/ramptest.html

Regards,
Werner
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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This was from one of Terry's posts in the forums a while back, and I don't know where it is, but I did copy-paste it to save it since it's pure gold IMHO:

Quote:
SPL can be roughly approximated to height and skill. I’ve prepared this height-indexed rough guide for 25-yard SPL (for 25m, add 1 to 2 SPL) to give swimmers a broad target:

5’0” to 5’ 2” 18 to 21 SPL
5’3” to 5’5” 17 to 20 SPL
5’6” to 5’ 8” 16 to 19 SPL
5’9” to 5’ 11” 15 to 18 SPL
6’0” to 6’2” 14 to 17 SPL
6’3” or taller 13 to 16 SPL
How to use it:

• Each height category is indexed to a range of 4 SPL. As you begin stroke counting, a personal range of 3 SPL will be sufficient.

• If you find that balance is elusive, your legs feel “heavy” or find it difficult to relax your kick, use the highest 3 counts in your range. (E.G. If you are 5’7” aim for 17 to 19 SPL.)

• If you feel generally well-supported with a relaxed kick, use the lower 3 counts in your range. (E.G. If you’re 5’7” aim for 16 to 18 SPL.)

• Aim to swim 25-yard repeats at the lowest count in your personal range. Use the upper 2 SPL in your range for middle or final laps on any repeat or swim. Stop for a rest or “reset” when you exceed the highest count in your range.

If you're above the height-indexed range -- or it's a strain to hold the SPL noted for your height -- you should keep your repeat distances fairly short and your Tempo fairly leisurely until your "effortless efficiency" improves.

In fact, use the SPL index as a guide to choosing Tempo. If your SPL is above the indicated range for your height, it would be best to set your Tempo Trainer around 1.30 until you can swim fairly consistently, at a range of repeat distances up to, say, 200 yds/mts within the range noted for your height. Once you can do that, you can begin moving toward, and possibly below, 1.20. If you can easily manage SPLs in the lower part of your range, you are probably ready to begin training with tempo from 1.0 to 1.10, or possibly even faster. Just use the SPL range as a guide to alert you to when the combination of Tempo and Distance may be exceeding your neural capacity.
re: to push off or not to push off

if you just start from zero velocity and drift forward into swimming from the wall, you have to use a lot of effort to accelerate and get yourself moving. this will add to your SPL but also mean that you will have some moments of potentially dealing with unstable balance as slower velocities can mean compromised balance simply because you do not have momentum to help keep your hips up.

also it is a bit unrealistic situation in that if you're starting to swim laps, then you're not going to stop each time you hit the wall to zero velocity and then start off again. you're going to do an open or flip turn and push off. this will of course mean you have a different SPL when you're swimming multiple laps versus just doing a single length at a time.

i would push off not super strongly so that you're trying to rocket yourself across the pool, but push off with authority such that you've got good acceleration in the opposite direction off the wall.

then count your SPL using one of the other suggested methods with the TT or similar.

for comparision, when i start, and swimming with TT, i push off on a beep. then depending on the tempo i do this:

if tempo >= 1.0s, i usually will push off on the beep, and on the next beep i will sweep my right arm back to skate position, and then count on the next beep, which means that my right arm has recovered forward and my left arm is pulling back. i do this mostly on turns too, but here it is hard to push off exactly on a beep so i may wait a beep before sweeping the right arm back.

if tempo <= 1.0s, then i will push off on the beep and i may wait a beep before sweeping my right arm back since the tempo is pretty fast and it would add strokes simply because i am trying to keep up with the TT.

re: efficiency v. SPL

that link is pretty good, although i wonder what that Wetronome is and i am not used to setting a stroke count per minute, versus the TT has a beep every X seconds. i think that the TT method is easier.

however, i have been using that efficiency point as a data point for training. in the last few workouts, i have been noting that as i move from 1.1 down to 1.0 by about .02s each interval, i am actually faster at the slower tempo than i am at the higher tempo. this is a bit counterintuitive, but also it is right because it is a data point saying that i've lost efficiency, and i'm tiring faster because i have less time interval to recover, as my tempo increases.

but each week, i go back and set the TT to train around that tempo where my efficiency breaks down and i have found that slowly but surely i am improving my ability to bring my efficiency back up again through persistent and consistent training with the TT. so over the last few weeks, i have managed to move my efficiency point ever lower to approach my goal of 1.0s tempo, which is my target as i have found in the past that in OW i need to get used to swimming with higher tempos to combat waves and stability.
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