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  #11  
Old 12-16-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Hi, I have to admit I didn't read the whole thread. Anyway I just wanted to throw a couple of thoughs:

1) It would be nice to see the other 3 strokes (fly, breatstroke and backstroke) over longer distances than 200m in competition. Why not have the 1500's in fly, br and bk too? People crossed the English Channel with these styles. Maybe we could learn that over 1500m backstroke is faster than fly. We could also see how the technique changes to be more sustainable

2) Among the 4 styles, front crawl (or "freestyle") imho remains the more "free" in that it is more customizable than the others. Think for instance to the recovery arm: high elbow, straight arm and everything in between. The kick: 2bk, 4bk, 6bk, 8bk etc. Timing: catchup, windmill and everything in between. Breathing: one side breathing, bilateral every 3, twice to left twice right etc. Shoulder driven vs hip driven, hybrid, loping stroke.

In short: Sun Yang and Gregorio Paltrinieri are day and night and both competed in the same race (before Sun Yang abandoned the 1500) with same outcomes. Of course there are customizations on the other 3 styles too, but not to this extent imho.

Happy swimming!
Salvo
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2016
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi, I have to admit I didn't read the whole thread. Anyway I just wanted to throw a couple of thoughts:

1) It would be nice to see the other 3 strokes (fly, breatstroke and backstroke) over longer distances than 200m in competition. Why not have the 1500's in fly, br and bk too? People crossed the English Channel with these styles. Maybe we could learn that over 1500m backstroke is faster than fly. We could also see how the technique changes to be more sustainable
Hi!
In my view backstroke is a variant of front crawling. In the same way I think butterfly and breaststroke are variant of the same thing. It would be interesting to see more distances but I guess they can't sustain that races per competition. That is why they should have "front crawling" races and freestyle, the distance would be mirrored between both. Freestyle would be pretty much not regulated; everything is allowed (except front crawling).
Quote:
2) Among the 4 styles, front crawl (or "freestyle") imho remains the more "free" in that it is more customizable than the others. Think for instance to the recovery arm: high elbow, straight arm and everything in between. The kick: 2bk, 4bk, 6bk, 8bk etc. Timing: catchup, windmill and everything in between. Breathing: one side breathing, bilateral every 3, twice to left twice right etc. Shoulder driven vs hip driven, hybrid, loping stroke.

In short: Sun Yang and Gregorio Paltrinieri are day and night and both competed in the same race (before Sun Yang abandoned the 1500) with same outcomes. Of course there are customisations on the other 3 styles too, but not to this extent imho.

Happy swimming!
Salvo
To me those are tiny variations. Michael Phelps dolphin kick/front crawling experiment was a more radical change though an abandoned one.

In the three other stroke there are less variations thanks to regulation and the races distances. The situation is "weird" to me, breaststroke as swum makes no bio-mechanical sense and the performances are further held by things that have nothing to do with the stroke in itself: athletes can't use the dolphin kick as much at the dive and at every turn.
Butterfly is free as the technique allowed is the fastest on the distances athletes compete on.

leaving the under waters part (and theirs regulations) butterfly is faster than breaststroke, that is not disputable. It allows to generate more propulsion than breaststroke ever will.
Now how close breaststroke could really get if swimmer were not force to get the head out of the water? We don't know.
Butterfly-ers breathing patterns change significantly from 50m, 100m to 200m yet it has a minimal impact on the technique (mostly driven by the airborne recovery).
Breaststroke is different, the recoveries happen underwater, yet one has to get the head out even if does not need to breath. I find doable to do 2 kicks in row, I connect them using a slight "wave style" movement to ease the preparation of the whip kick and actually also to increase its strength.
It is still impossible for such techniques to beat butterfly, in absolute term but on a longer distance when human body show its limits? I don't know.
Either way say we are to race 1500m and 2 kicks 1 breath breaststroke beats vanilla butterfly, "we" can't say in fact if a better compromise is butterfrog.
The arm movement is the same demanding but efficient, the frog kick as some recovery (/generate some drag) but it is powerful and pretty efficient. Sustaining a whole body dolphin is fast for sure but it use so many muscles and burn so much power.

Ultimately what I mean is that we lack "answers" on relatively important questions with regard to efficiency in swimming and how that intersects human endurance (athletes or casuals). It is worse people (especially casual) are learning "wrong" alternatives to front crawling or head-up front crawling. The praying recovery makes no sense in casual breaststroke. Casual should may be not learn competitive breaststroke go right away with butterfrog.
For now we have the answer to the most important question about the most efficient way which and the answer is front crawling.

Ahahah... overthinking at it is worse... lol

I will do more swimming and less thinking...

Happy swimming too :)
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2017
liolio
 
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I no longer really bother about the original question for multiple reasons.
*I do breaststroke less and less as it puts a strain on my neck, I (try to) focus on a fast (for me) and more proper form of breaststroke. The slower I get the more I use my neck for head elevation. At slow pace I go either with front crawl or breaststrokish hybrids.
*I get better at front crawl and whereas I like breaststroke the stroke does not cut it for distance. Deregulation would won breaststroke seconds closing part of gap but in the long run... sustaining speed in breaststroke is exhausting.
*I'm doing better at butterfly, I would say that I'm not a proper... beginner :) After a couple swim in the adriatic sea (be the extra buyoancy it provides blessed) I won a greater inderstanding of the stroke. I hope to further my progress when I'm back to the pool. Wrt to the original topic whereas I want to lean the stroke because it is fun on its own, as for breaststroke I realized how wide the gap in efficiency compared to front crawl / backstroke is.

Other than that I completely reverse my views on backstroke, both the canon/competitive version and whatever possible hybrid one can come with. I've come to find out that butterfly or hybrid butterfly/breaststroke swum on the back are mych more successfull approach of swimming than theirs "breast" versions. I'm not sure the same max speed but sure the efficiency seems to be higher to me, significantly. It is also feels extremely "natural", to me at least which is more attrated breast and fly than to proper back/freestyle.

So if I were to bet now on a stroke as an alternative to backstroke and front crawling on distance swimming I would put my bet on those hybrid strokes. Whereas they lose in speed and efficiency it is not by as much as the version swum on the breast and they are relying on a more natural/complete set of mucles than freestyle (extremely depend on arm/torso), it may go well with more body types.
A down side is that one has to have no apprehension of water and the pace of exhaling as to be well controlled, but once that is ok you can look forward under water, etc. you can also (like in backstroke) breath a lot more than in any other strokes.
A I swam in sea I found out that accidentally breathing (some) water through the nose is not that awful (might be close to phisiologic serum) and triggered minor disagreement, that is not true with swimming pool water though.
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  #14  
Old 05-25-2017
liolio
 
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For the ref there are a couple video available on youtube that showcase a "pure" back butterfly swimming (imho not that succesfully).
At distance pace a narrow whip kick help to dive in the water as the hands enter and make a for low SPL, as one accelerates more power is directed toward the arms, SPL increases, etc => as for the version swum on the breast, the dolphin kick become a more pertinent solution.

As a side note the whip kick blends in the stroke much much better on the back than on the breast. A "funny" thing is that on the back you can swim "complete" breastroke with complete arm movement as airborn recovery is a given.

To summup I like swimming on the back, it works pretty well and both my neck and back thanks me in return.
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  #15  
Old 05-27-2017
whale
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
That is breastfly. A fifth cannon of swimming
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  #16  
Old 05-27-2017
whale
 
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Ps to the OP keeping your head under water is one of the cannons of TI or mammal swimming as taught by dolphins and whales.
One can't imagine a dolphin swimming with head out kf water for anything other than a few seconds of fun, but then its back under the water.

Similarly the frog kick is not the most efficient mammalian kick. The most efficient is the dolphin kick
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  #17  
Old 05-29-2017
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whale View Post
Ps to the OP keeping your head under water is one of the cannons of TI or mammal swimming as taught by dolphins and whales.
One can't imagine a dolphin swimming with head out of water for anything other than a few seconds of fun, but then its back under the water.
Indeed but clearly some people does not like water as much as some others, some have strong apprehension and take few pleasure in the contact with water (nb not me).
Quote:
Similarly the frog kick is not the most efficient mammalian kick. The most efficient is the dolphin kick
Well I'm not sure it is cut that straight. Dolphin kick works great under water and like flutter kick it has no recovery. Yet in surface swimming (on the back or the breast) its efficiency is diminish due to the lack of water, either way one has to swim on its side (which is not that natural, might hurt the spine pretty fast, etc.).
Then there is the strain compared to the result, having a propulsive dolphin kick (or whole body ondulation) is significantly more strenous than whip/frog kick.

I think that ultimately a superior movement (the dolphin kick/whole body dolphin) has to be pondered by human body confortable range of movements. Frog kick is comfortable and rely on big efficient muscles. Not that hydrodynamic thought.

Freestyle aside all the stroke are evaluated on short distances. Even on such distance all the strokes are slower than freestyle but the swimmers lose speed faster than in freestyle, even backstroke iirc. My belief is that on relatively short distances the athlete incredible level of fitness (partly) hide the differences in strokes efficiency.

I do swim breastfly sometime but it significantly slower for me than competitive breaststroke or whatever hybridation I come with. For me the dolphin kick does not provide the necessary torque to power a proper breaststroke arm movement. Few elevation is created for breathing: side breathing come handy. Arms contribution to the stroke is even lesser than in breaststroke.
No matter my effort (and imagination) all the effort to have a wavy, symmetrical, swum on the breast, type of stroke (that is obviously is neither butterfly or breaststroke) left me unhappy. My pov is that breathing "breaks" the spirit of those strokes (then under water recoveries in breaststroke further the issue). Side breathing is more a hack than a solution to me as it blends poorly into the symmetrical arms/shoulders movements.

All those issues are none or lessen on the back as your respiratory intakes looks up. whether or not you use whip kick while on you back you can use the full range of motion of your arms, the air born recovery is trivial matter. It is no mystery why the cetaceans evolved to breath from their head.
I swam yesterday in a lake with a small swell and that back stroke was the least affected by those condition (wrt to breathing).

My bet is that such stroke on a long enough distance would top all the others strokes (but freestyle). It uses the body "fully", complete arm movement, whip kick, and whole body undulation (as the arms pass along the body). It is not as smooth as freestyle (cinetic energy due to forward motion remains ~constant) but the movement used naturally provide the torque to offset the loss of inertia, it is easy to introduce glide. A stroke that provides lot of torque might come handy in non optimal conditions.
(NB don't read this as it will compete with freestyle.)

That vid showcase a stroke swam on the back as close as possible to "canon" butterfly, in my opinion a mistake (*). It is not that interesting by self but the comment Odiling made wrt "Schwimmen mit Wellenbewegungen" is. I wish I could learn more about that book and its autors findings.

*I see no reason to stick to canon butterfly while on your back, the airborne recovery happens under a completely different set of circumstances than in butterfly for example. Other than I'm not so fond of passing judgment or feel legit doing so but the execution of the swimmer in the vid seems quite bad to me: too much knee bend and overall body undulation while on his back looks weak, his speed drops to ~zero on a big portion of his stroke (from the recovery to pretty much the arm push he looks like he is sinking more than going forward).
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  #18  
Old 07-19-2017
albertjohns
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
Indeed but clearly some people does not like water as much as some others, some have strong apprehension and take few pleasure in the contact with water (nb not me).

Well I'm not sure it is cut that straight. Dolphin kick works great under water and like flutter kick it has no recovery. Yet in surface swimming (on the back or the breast) its efficiency is diminish due to the lack of water, either way one has to swim on its side (which is not that natural, might hurt the spine pretty fast, etc.).
Then there is the strain compared to the result, having a propulsive dolphin kick (or whole body ondulation) is significantly more strenous than whip/frog kick.

I think that ultimately a superior movement (the dolphin kick/whole body dolphin) has to be pondered by human body confortable range of movements. Frog kick is comfortable and rely on big efficient muscles. Not that hydrodynamic thought.

Freestyle aside all the stroke are evaluated on short distances. Even on such distance all the strokes are slower than freestyle but the swimmers lose speed faster than in freestyle, even backstroke iirc. My belief is that on relatively short distances the athlete incredible level of fitness (partly) hide the differences in strokes efficiency.

I do swim breastfly sometime but it significantly slower for me than competitive breaststroke or whatever hybridation I come with. For me the dolphin kick does not provide the necessary torque to power a proper breaststroke arm movement. Few elevation is created for breathing: side breathing come handy. Arms contribution to the stroke is even lesser than in breaststroke.
No matter my effort (and imagination) all the effort to have a wavy, symmetrical, swum on the breast, type of stroke (that is obviously is neither butterfly or breaststroke) left me unhappy. My pov is that breathing "breaks" the spirit of those strokes (then under water recoveries in breaststroke further the issue). Side breathing is more a hack than a solution to me as it blends poorly into the symmetrical arms/shoulders movements.

All those issues are none or lessen on the back as your respiratory intakes looks up. whether or not you use whip kick while on you back you can use the full range of motion of your arms, the air born recovery is trivial matter. It is no mystery why the cetaceans evolved to breath from their head.
I swam yesterday in a lake with a small swell and that back stroke was the least affected by those condition (wrt to breathing).

My bet is that such stroke on a long enough distance would top all the others strokes (but freestyle). It uses the body "fully", complete arm movement, whip kick, and whole body undulation (as the arms pass along the body). It is not as smooth as freestyle (cinetic energy due to forward motion remains ~constant) but the movement used naturally provide the torque to offset the loss of inertia, it is easy to introduce glide. A stroke that provides lot of torque might come handy in non optimal conditions.
(NB don't read this as it will compete with freestyle.)

That vid showcase a stroke swam on the back as close as possible to "canon" butterfly, in my opinion a mistake (*). It is not that interesting by self but the comment Odiling made wrt "Schwimmen mit Wellenbewegungen" is. I wish I could learn more about that book and its autors findings.

*I see no reason to stick to canon butterfly while on your back, the airborne recovery happens under a completely different set of circumstances than in butterfly for example. Other than I'm not so fond of passing judgment or feel legit doing so but the execution of the swimmer in the vid seems quite bad to me: too much knee bend and overall body undulation while on his back looks weak, his speed drops to ~zero on a big portion of his stroke (from the recovery to pretty much the arm push he looks like he is sinking more than going forward).
Yes this right
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  #19  
Old 01-18-2018
liolio
 
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I've been swimming for one year and half now (and quite often).

Breaststroke is still the stroke I use the most. As I'm improving I'm a lot more iffy when it comes to way to improve it through inclusion of undulation/dolphin to the stroke. Long story short I can't make the lengthening of stroke matched by extra energy expenditure of a dolphin kick/undulation (compared to say a longer glide, or more frequent but easier and narrower legs/arms stroke) with a proper cardio/breathing rhythm.

I would like to see all strokes on an equal footing from starts (thinking of backstroke here) to the the turns. I also think the underwater part of the race should be shortened. Now I don't expect much changes in the hierarchy among strokes but it would be a fairer comparison of stroke efficiencies.

The same may applies to the enforcement of "breathing/head out" pattern in breastroke, I see absolutely no point to it. If there was a point to it, it should be applied to flyers too it is not. It would be a matter of personal preferences and distances.

So I still think that breastroke is held by regulation.

As for the "backstroke alternative" it may have hidden potential on long distance swim. It is a low spl stroke that is sure. The frog kick, undulation and the "full arms pattern" blend into the cardiac/breathing rhythm more naturally. My bet is that when you breath your belly is extending and back is contracting as you are prepping your next "dive" (powered by the frog kick) into the water. As you do you might significantly increase the volume of O2 you get into your lungs which in turn make the underwater part of the stroke feel easier/natural.
That "stroke" has a feel of its own to me, the most aquatic I would say and possibly my favorite way of moving through the water.
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  #20  
Old 01-18-2018
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
I would like to see all strokes on an equal footing from starts (thinking of backstroke here) to the the turns. I also think the underwater part of the race should be shortened. Now I don't expect much changes in the hierarchy among strokes but it would be a fairer comparison of stroke efficiencies.
The only difference in the rules for turns is that breaststrokers and butterfliers are required to touch the wall with both hands on each turn, whereas in backstroke and freestyle the rule is just that some part of your body must touch the wall (which normally ends up being the bottom of the swimmer's feet as they kick off the wall). Being required to touch the wall with both hands is what makes it impossible to do flip turns in breaststroke or butterfly. But I have trouble imagining how a swimmer would do a flip turn in breaststroke without making arm movements that would violate the normal rules for breaststroke arm movements.

Current rules for backstroke, butterfly, and freestyle require that swimmers surface within 15m after the start and after each turn. What limit would you want to use instead? Currently there are no rules requiring breaststrokers to surface within a certain distance, though the rules on kicking effectively limit how far it makes sense to stay underwater.

Quote:
The same may applies to the enforcement of "breathing/head out" pattern in breastroke, I see absolutely no point to it. If there was a point to it, it should be applied to flyers too it is not. It would be a matter of personal preferences and distances.
I'm not sure what you mean by "'breathing/head out' pattern". The only rule in breaststroke is that some portion of your head must break the surface on each stroke cycle. That's actually less restrictive than the rules for backstroke, butterfly, and freestyle, which require that after surfacing, the swimmer must remain at the surface until the next turn or the finish.

Quote:
So I still think that breastroke is held by regulation.
There's no question that the rules of breaststroke place a lot of restrictions on what a swimmer can and can't do with their arms and legs. Butterfly came into being because the rules for breaststroke were less restrictive and didn't prohibit doing an over-the-water arm recovery. But when it appeared that the classic breaststroke was going to disappear in competition, the rules for breaststroke were tightened and the new way of doing breaststroke (i.e., butterfly) was made into a separate event. The bottom line is that if you don't place restrictions on how breaststroke is done, it will cease to be the stroke that has historically been known as breaststroke.


Bob
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