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  #11  
Old 05-09-2017
Benor
 
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Well, train your breath first.
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  #12  
Old 05-10-2017
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benor View Post
Well, train your breath first.
Thanks for the advice, I manage to somehow relax more so the stroke is less demanding (especially overdoing the catch...) But indeed you are right the breathing is completely off (and with him the rithm :( ).

Nice thing is I've things, many things to practice.
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  #13  
Old 07-05-2017
liolio
 
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I've made further progress, I eased significantly into the stroke. I'm more relaxed, I dive slightly deeper during the hand entry, I feel more in synch with my body undulation, said undultion is more relaxed and efficient.
My catch also feels much much better. Still a demanding stroke for me but Ienjoy now doing 25m (out of 50m) in fly and then finish the length using whatever stroke without feeling like dying.
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  #14  
Old 07-25-2017
BerndS
 
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Default getting the "body-wave" and breathing-rythm

it helped me a lot to do the following two warm ups:

to get the body-wave and the kick-rythm:
breast-arm stroke + butterfly kick (at least 2 lanes)
2 kicks: one on entering the water (body wave), one at catching breath
2.5 kicks: a small one like relaxing the legs in between

to warm up the arms and get a breath-rythm:
one sided crawl (2-4 strokes) then change side (2-4 strokes) then full butterfly (2-4 strokes) then breast-arms + butterfly kick (2-4 strokes) - (at least 2 lanes)

to get distance:
full dolphin with 0.5 extra kick (the relaxing-leg-kick), slows down, but you can do it forever and recover breath ;)

For me it helped to have two different kicks, the first more horizontal (body-wave) for translation - and one for catching breath (more vertical power).
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  #15  
Old 07-26-2017
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerndS View Post
it helped me a lot to do the following two warm ups:

to get the body-wave and the kick-rythm:
breast-arm stroke + butterfly kick (at least 2 lanes)
2 kicks: one on entering the water (body wave), one at catching breath
2.5 kicks: a small one like relaxing the legs in between

to warm up the arms and get a breath-rythm:
one sided crawl (2-4 strokes) then change side (2-4 strokes) then full butterfly (2-4 strokes) then breast-arms + butterfly kick (2-4 strokes) - (at least 2 lanes)
I'm not the thread opener though I thank for you nonetheless for your answer. I've decided to put proper butterfly on hold (health reason) but I still work on dolphin kick, etc.
I may try the one arm drill and see how my shoulder behave.
Quote:
to get distance:
full dolphin with 0.5 extra kick (the relaxing-leg-kick), slows down, but you can do it forever and recover breath ;)
I may have tried something like this I definitely could not keep it going forever lol. I need I think more relaxation overall and my arms to work along with my core body (I suspect).
Another thing I found is to dive a little deeper, it definitely ease the stroke at the cost of a lot of speed. While doing so I also found that my arm movement move further away from butterfly "canon", like a "complete" breaststroke movement with a significant outsweep which help going up. the speed is better than in the relaxed (1.5 kick as you say) version of the stroke for me, the strain is mostly the same: I still can keep it going for long. I suspect for the same reasons: tensions, all the motions are not properly connected, losing focus on "dynamic buyoancy": chest pressure, hips elevation.
Quote:
For me it helped to have two different kicks, the first more horizontal (body-wave) for translation - and one for catching breath (more vertical power).
That is something that have been bothering me for a while with the stroke,learning by myself I though 2 kick two undulations and it did not work. The rhythm is much slower than for proper butterfly and it is tough to generate enough elevation for the recovery (either way you dive too deep to have any speed). It is something that is not clearly explained: there are the body movements (from undulations to dolphin kicks depending how flat you swim*) then there is the "meta" undulation of the stroke which has its own tempo.
Say the body does down-up down-up, it has to be map on the meta undulation down-up-up-down. At least that is how I understand it now.


*that is something that bothers me, undulations does not seem to work with the "canon" arm movement for the stroke (minus super flexible shoulders). I can't get the undulation going properly as in breastfly/cobra as no matter the buoyancy going up is still more complicated than going down (and dirty arm exit and recoveries do a quick job at wearing me and throwing me out of rhythm).
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  #16  
Old 07-26-2017
BerndS
 
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Default I'd recommend improving the kick first ; )

Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
I'm not the thread opener though I thank for you nonetheless for your answer. I've decided to put proper butterfly on hold (health reason) but I still work on dolphin kick, etc.
I may try the one arm drill and see how my shoulder behave.
For me the kick is the most important thing. I focused on increasing the relative amount of work done with the body + leg as I started to go for long distance butterfly. Now, depending on the situation (cramp, or some weak arms) I can do 50+% with body + kick. Doing the breast arms + dolphin kick morphed into very little arm movement - barely moving much more then the wrists to enter the water and starting the body wave. I did this for hours (crowded pool) until I got faster than my working colleague in breast stroke (former swimmer, too). This way in full butterfly, I can make sure that my arms do not get exhausted and in case of two way traffic on a lane one can do 2-4 extra kicks (without losing too much speed) to avoid irritation of other swimmers.

The relaxing 0.3-0.5 extra kick is more a flapping or juggling - I needed to do it when getting cramps in the lower leg and noticed that it is really helpful when one is used to pool lane distances and in a lake there no wall for resting ; )

I never have been an elite swimmer. I re-started somehow regular swimming at 42ys, and now with 50ys I am a very relaxed butterflyer, not caring for speed, just flying as long as I am in the water (mostly ~50 mins, sometimes 2h) not counting the lanes or rounds in the lake (ok, sometimes counting strokes per lane). Just enjoying the feeling as long as there is time for it.
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2018
liolio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BerndS View Post
For me the kick is the most important thing. I focused on increasing the relative amount of work done with the body + leg as I started to go for long distance butterfly. Now, depending on the situation (cramp, or some weak arms) I can do 50+% with body + kick. Doing the breast arms + dolphin kick morphed into very little arm movement - barely moving much more then the wrists to enter the water and starting the body wave. I did this for hours (crowded pool) until I got faster than my working colleague in breast stroke (former swimmer, too). This way in full butterfly, I can make sure that my arms do not get exhausted and in case of two way traffic on a lane one can do 2-4 extra kicks (without losing too much speed) to avoid irritation of other swimmers.

The relaxing 0.3-0.5 extra kick is more a flapping or juggling - I needed to do it when getting cramps in the lower leg and noticed that it is really helpful when one is used to pool lane distances and in a lake there no wall for resting ; )

I never have been an elite swimmer. I re-started somehow regular swimming at 42ys, and now with 50ys I am a very relaxed butterflyer, not caring for speed, just flying as long as I am in the water (mostly ~50 mins, sometimes 2h) not counting the lanes or rounds in the lake (ok, sometimes counting strokes per lane). Just enjoying the feeling as long as there is time for it.
Late thanks for your advices.
I've followed your advices thought I understood what was wrong with my kick/undulation only a couple days ago. I was relaxing (or so I thought...) I was trying to go with the flow with light flicking kick yet it was not ok, something was wrong.
i finally realized (though working my breaststroke) that whereas I was relaxing my leg torso and what not actually my lower back remained quite tense (without me noticing it) which preventing the undulation to feel really connected => tough to get hips elevation, up kicking was not feeling right, etc.
It has only been a couple days but I can't tell that it i a major piece of the puzzle I expect now to get in place within the couple months :)

Still far from flying but parts of stroke start to make more sense.
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  #18  
Old 01-30-2018
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 647
CoachBobM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liolio View Post
Late thanks for your advices.
I've followed your advices thought I understood what was wrong with my kick/undulation only a couple days ago. I was relaxing (or so I thought...) I was trying to go with the flow with light flicking kick yet it was not ok, something was wrong.
i finally realized (though working my breaststroke) that whereas I was relaxing my leg torso and what not actually my lower back remained quite tense (without me noticing it) which preventing the undulation to feel really connected => tough to get hips elevation, up kicking was not feeling right, etc.
It has only been a couple days but I can't tell that it i a major piece of the puzzle I expect now to get in place within the couple months :)

Still far from flying but parts of stroke start to make more sense.
Great news! Keep us informed about how you're doing!


Bob
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