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  #11  
Old 04-29-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Interesting, I'll have to take more note of the up-kick and how it relates specifically to recovery.

But when taking those clinics from Teryr like I mentioned, he let the legs hang low on purpose which actually can place them in a good position to gently kick the body into streamline as the recovery arms go in.

it's par to fthe learning progression to develop the timing, not necessarily how you'd approach full stroke.

if you let hte legs / hips sink, and gently le tthe knees bend, when you recovery thearms (early release, throw them forward) and gently kick the knees straight then the whole body arrives in streamline at once.

I'll play with your upkick...you play with my bent knee kick into streamline...and we'll meet back here to discuss.
Hi Suzanne, I think you bring up another issue with Terry's approach which caused me some trouble. As I recollect, when I looked at Terry's body dolphin, he is doing a lot of bending at the knees and very little bending at the hips. He describes his emphasis on streamlining, which may explain the difference in approach. Over time, I found that the kicking that feels most effective to me is with very little knee bending and most bending at the hips. When you kick this way, you can really feel your abs working on the down-kick. My emphasis when I kick this way is less on streamlining and more on undulation. The undulation does not have to be high amplitude, but the butt is definitely making a corner between the legs and the upper body, which Terry didn't seem to be doing. This may be what he refers to as "boomer fly", I'm not sure. When you are kicking mostly at the hips, I think the up-beat may also become more important, because, if you aren't kicking at the hips, then there is no upbeat.

Don't know if what I said above makes sense to you, but I would be interested in your thoughts. If it does make sense, which type of kicking are you doing?
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  #12  
Old 04-29-2016
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Hi Suzanne, I think you bring up another issue with Terry's approach which caused me some trouble. As I recollect, when I looked at Terry's body dolphin, he is doing a lot of bending at the knees and very little bending at the hips. He describes his emphasis on streamlining, which may explain the difference in approach. Over time, I found that the kicking that feels most effective to me is with very little knee bending and most bending at the hips. When you kick this way, you can really feel your abs working on the down-kick. My emphasis when I kick this way is less on streamlining and more on undulation. The undulation does not have to be high amplitude, but the butt is definitely making a corner between the legs and the upper body, which Terry didn't seem to be doing. This may be what he refers to as "boomer fly", I'm not sure. When you are kicking mostly at the hips, I think the up-beat may also become more important, because, if you aren't kicking at the hips, then there is no upbeat.

Don't know if what I said above makes sense to you, but I would be interested in your thoughts. If it does make sense, which type of kicking are you doing?
Im definately kicking from the hips...Terry's approach however is a stepping stone. it goes back to bouyancy and gravity. The body sinks as the arms recover. When you allow that sinking motion to be absorbed by the knees for example, you can quickly learn how to kick into streamline.

Obvioiusly severe bending at the knees with low hips is not drag-friendly. when you learn when to time the kicke with entry to "kick into streamline" getting the arms out into recovery becomes far less of a struggle by not kickcing early.

Getting the knees more straight and the hips more involved risks pressure on the lumbar spine, which requires a lot of core awareness and strength.

So just like Ti initially teaches a lower spear in front which can then be modified to a more streamlined position to help protect the shoulder, kicking in response to the return of bouyancy in fly is made easiest on the lumbar spine by just waiting and assisting the hands in. When the rhtyme and flow is there the legs can be straighter and the upkick more fluid as well. But if the upkcik is done to get the arms out it's another exmaple of a high energy cost solution.

To me it' snot one or the other, it's a progression in the learning sequence.

First turn off all the muscles that don't need to be active, then incoprorate posture and core.
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  #13  
Old 04-29-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Im definately kicking from the hips...Terry's approach however is a stepping stone. it goes back to bouyancy and gravity. The body sinks as the arms recover. When you allow that sinking motion to be absorbed by the knees for example, you can quickly learn how to kick into streamline.

Obvioiusly severe bending at the knees with low hips is not drag-friendly. when you learn when to time the kicke with entry to "kick into streamline" getting the arms out into recovery becomes far less of a struggle by not kickcing early.

Getting the knees more straight and the hips more involved risks pressure on the lumbar spine, which requires a lot of core awareness and strength.

So just like Ti initially teaches a lower spear in front which can then be modified to a more streamlined position to help protect the shoulder, kicking in response to the return of bouyancy in fly is made easiest on the lumbar spine by just waiting and assisting the hands in. When the rhtyme and flow is there the legs can be straighter and the upkick more fluid as well. But if the upkcik is done to get the arms out it's another exmaple of a high energy cost solution.

To me it' snot one or the other, it's a progression in the learning sequence.

First turn off all the muscles that don't need to be active, then incoprorate posture and core.
Hi Suzanne, I think I agree with most of what you are saying. But I found that kicking from the hips made fly easier for me than using Terry's approach. Not sure why. I wouldn't say that I am using the upkick to get my arms out, but I am using it to get my head out while keeping my head aligned with my spine. As descending has pointed out, raising your head and breaking alignment to get it out of the water is really bad for the recovery. I would also agree that I am probably using too much energy in my upkick right now to accomplish what I want. The same goes for my downkick. But I view myself still very much in the learning phase with all of this, and I am hoping that, as my timing and feel for the motion improves, I can back off on the energy needed. Charles once compared this to learning how to drive. At the beginning, you may brake and accelerate too quickly, but once you get used to it, you can feel what is the right amount of braking and accelerating to drive smoothly.
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