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  #1  
Old 10-23-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
Default great breathing control set

Hi all,

for those who believe that breathing is the number 1 skill to master not only in swimming but in life, here is something great to read and try:

http://www.seahiker.com/improve-your...thing-pyramid/

What I liked the most at a first reading is the "bobs" concept more than the pyramid itself, in particular:

You will no longer have the luxury of gasping (huffing and puffing) at the wall after struggling through a lap. In order to breathe in a controlled way while doing bobs at the wall, you have to breathe effectively during your swim, too.

And the other thing that I liked is that in this kind of practice you'd rather want to swim around your breathing and not breathe around your swim. That's one of the best feelings I can get in the water, pure freedom.


So I wanted to try it right away and I wanted to do it twice before reporting here.
In the first session I did this main set: 25x100m breathing every 3 strokes with 4 bobs rest (ie slightly less than 12s, every bob is 1s or less inhaling above water + 2s or less exhaling underwater). I set the TT in lap mode at 24s/length to pace myself at 1:36/100m and went out, focusing ONLY on breathing. I didn't count SPL, only thought "1-2-breath, 1-2-breath..." and tried not to break this breathing rhythm during the turns (it's easier with an open turn) and during the rests. My estimated stroke rate was between 70 and 72SPM and it felt easy (though it's a bit faster than my usual rate over 2.5km). In fact everything felt easy, steady and sustainable: the stroke was lighter and shorter than usual, same for the turns and pushoffs. The 4 resting bobs were enough, no need to gasp or rest more. In a way it was like not resting at all, like a continuous open water swim.

I was very excited at the end of this set, so today I wanted to repeat the same set but resting for 3 bobs instead of 4. Same outcomes, same feelings, great. To be honest i often touched at 1:37 instead of 1:36 but that's not the point. The point is that the whole thing feels very sustainable, much more sustainable than when I breathe every 2 strokes and rest longer (at same pace).

The next time I'll repeat the same set with 2 resting bobs (ie less than 6s rests) and see how it feels (then eventually 1 bob etc).

I believe this is a valuable "Formula for a faster 1500" (my favourite thread in this forum, ever). I'm not yet at 24:00 over 1500m but I feel I'm quite close.

Give it a try!
Salvo
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  #2  
Old 10-28-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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So did anybody try any interval sets with "bobs" rests by chance?

In the meanwhile I repeated my 25x100s by gradually reducing my rests up to 1 bob. Comparing to when I allowed myself 4 bobs I didn't observe much performance degradation: the perceived effort was about the same, I only was slightly slower (say 1s/100m).

When everything is breathing-driven, I guess there's some kind of autoregulation which locks effort level, and the pace accords by consequence. Just like running with cardio at a given heart rate and perceive always the same effort. So when the breathing rhythm is the same throughout the whole set (including rests with bobs), resting for 4 bobs or 12s is not that different than resting for 1 bob or 3s.

I find it a powerful tool, especially when training for long distances on open water (where there are no walls and the breathing rhythm is not broken every length).

By the way, I only see Terry posting in this room recently, all the others seem to be interested only by technical topics in the freestyle room. Is there anybody who "trains"?


To close this first "cycle" I'll repeat the set with no rests (0 bobs, basically a time trial) and then I guess I'll start over again with 4 bobs (then 3, 2, 1, 0) at a slightly faster pace.

BR,
Salvo
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Hey Salvo

Have read your post and am very interested in trying this out. However I have been sidelined from the pool due to cataract surgery. Hopefully b the end of this week, the doctor will give me clearance to swim. I have read your link to seahiker and I think this will be a good way to get my feet wet after not swimming for 3 weeks.

Will let you know how this goes.

Sherry
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  #4  
Old 10-29-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Hi Sherry,
glad to hear you'll be back swimming soon. When you'll try this out, always remember to exhale properly during the swim. You don't have the luxury of gasping at the walls to repair for a bad breathing while swimming. And, if your stroke rate is not high, I suggest you to breathe every 2 strokes (maybe alternating breathing side on every length to keep symmetry). And try to keep your breathing rhythm as costant as possible also during the turns.

If you do it properly, it should feel like when swimming with a snorkel (ie air always available). Be breath-driven :)

Happy swimming,
Salvo
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Salvo

Got back to the pool last Monday and found seahiker's post was very helpful in getting my feet wet after a 3 week layoff.

I am very familiar with "bobs"--one good thing I learned from a YMCS swim instructor. Was using these just for rest intervals and not coordinating them with breathing while swimming. The first day I experimented with different lengths and after 20 minutes, that nagging breathlessness started creeping in. Time to concentrate on something else for a while.

Have a question for you. Seahiker's article list 6 breathing skills that are often not down correctly. I know for sure that I have 2 of them--exhaling too forcefully and late breathing (when not thinking about it). Would it be better to correct these faults first or can they be done as focal points when going thru the various intervals?

From your post, I gather that you don't have the problem with the coordination of rest interval bobs with your actual swimming. Not so with me tho. Can do it great when at the wall, even while rehearsing swim stroke and bobs. Another story when actually swimming through the water.

On Tuesday, things got a little better. Discovered that a 3/2 pattern (L,R,L,B,R,L,B) seemed very comfortable for me. Can't get to the pool until Friday, so will try this again. I think I will also introduce the TT to help get a rhythm going.

Thanks for posting your article.

You said:

By the way, I only see Terry posting in this room recently, all the others seem to be interested only by technical topics in the freestyle room. Is there anybody who "trains"?



I think the main reason for others not posting is that Terry's sessions are intimidating for most of us. I realize they can be cut down to fit someone's level of swimming, but in contrast to Terry's efforts, most of us fall quite short.

Just my take

Sherry
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post

Have a question for you. Seahiker's article list 6 breathing skills that are often not down correctly. I know for sure that I have 2 of them--exhaling too forcefully and late breathing (when not thinking about it). Would it be better to correct these faults first or can they be done as focal points when going thru the various intervals?
Hi Sherry, good to hear you're doing fine! About your question, I don't know which is better, perhaps you can already work on those 2 skills as focal points while doing the intervals and see how it feels. Bobs don't give you the luxury of gasping at the walls, so if you should exhale too forcefully and breathe late while swimming, you would be forced to stop the interval anyway. It's like an autoregulation system.

Today I started a new cycle: the main set was 25x100m at my 1500m target pace resting 4 bobs (or 12s). Comparing to last week I was slightly faster at the same effort, I like these bobs intervals!

Salvo
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2015
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
I think the main reason for others not posting is that Terry's sessions are intimidating for most of us. I realize they can be cut down to fit someone's level of swimming, but in contrast to Terry's efforts, most of us fall quite short.
Sherry
Thanks for that possible insight. I should give some thought to the possibility others might be discouraged from sharing their thoughts on or experiences with training by the complexity or ambition of my practices. I would hate to deter anyone.
My main reason for posting is transparency and accountability. Transparency to make my practice and thinking about it available to anyone who may be interested. Accountability -- to show everyone I practice what I preach and teach.

I use my practices to develop protocols that I can share--generally in a more simple form--with others.

Perhaps I should set up a conference devoted purely to my reflections and reports on my own training and leave this conference to everyone else.
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  #8  
Old 11-08-2015
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Terry

Tks for your reply. You said: Perhaps I should set up a conference devoted purely to my reflections and reports on my own training and leave this conference to everyone else.

Don't think you should do this. My nature is a little on the timid side and so my viewpoint is strictly my own. Would be interested in hearing other opinions.

I have read a lot of your postings on this forum and also reread them and am learning a lot. Namely how to construct a training session. this has been very valuable to me.

Salvo had asked why there weren't more postings of training by other people. Like he said, the freestyle forum gets the most hits (and responses).
There was a poster--user name jellybean--that was using the freestyle forum for his training sessions. They were quite informative and wondered why he didn't use this forum for his postings.

I know that a poster--user name awp-posts a lot. He was kind enough to help me on some issues with my training sessions. This type of interaction is very invaluable to me.

anyway, please don't abandon the ship on one opinion.

Sherry
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  #9  
Old 11-08-2015
michaelmarshall5030
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Hi all,

for those who believe that breathing is the number 1 skill to master not only in swimming but in life, here is something great to read and try:

http://www.seahiker.com/improve-your...thing-pyramid/

What I liked the most at a first reading is the "bobs" concept more than the pyramid itself, in particular:

You will no longer have the luxury of gasping (huffing and puffing) at the wall after struggling through a lap. In order to breathe in a controlled way while doing bobs at the wall, you have to breathe effectively during your swim, too.

And the other thing that I liked is that in this kind of practice you'd rather want to swim around your breathing and not breathe around your swim. That's one of the best feelings I can get in the water, pure freedom.

Give it a try!
Salvo
I never thought of doing this... I am new to TI within the last few months, and gave up on swimming for a long time because of breathing issues. I fixed my buoyancy and leveling issues, but I still I tend to be a "huffer and puffer" between sets, as much as my sets are on the beginner level. Back in college, before any knowledge of TI, I was an even more huffer and puffer; hence that is why I gave up swimming for a long time. This will definitely be something to integrate into my workout, and hopefully I will continue to improve my swimming.
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  #10  
Old 11-09-2015
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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s.sciame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Perhaps I should set up a conference devoted purely to my reflections and reports on my own training and leave this conference to everyone else.
Hi Terry, please don't do it! Personally I think people is highly motivated rather than intimidated by your practices.

Out of curiosity I've just done a very quick search in this forum: it turns out that the most viewed threads are about breathing issues, stroke length and "a Formula for a faster 1500/1650". This last mentioned thread, started by yourself, is a cornerstone for me, I place it in my hall of fame. There's so much knowledge shared in that thread.

One last thing: I discovered TI, the forum and read your book in 2011. Since then I fell in love with swimming and one of the coolest things for me was being able to come here and read about your own practices and the comments by other passionate swimmers.

Best regards,
Salvo
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