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  #41  
Old 11-06-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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If only citing a dictionary definitions helped us understand the world.

Astrology - basically nonsense but believed by many. Best avoided in serious discussion.
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  #42  
Old 11-06-2011
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
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I will give it a try…the way I understand it, to talk about synergy we need to begin with two or more separate elements that cause the same effect. For instance, element A heats water to 20 degrees, element B heats water to 30 degrees, but together they heat not to 50 but 60 degrees.

So to answer your question, I would say that the kettle is not a synergic system, as water and kettle, taken individually, they are useless for the sake of obtaining boiled water.

An example of synergy in swimming could be applied to propulsion, if one hypothetically said that kick provides 10% of propulsion, arms 70%, but together they get to 100%. However, I don’t think it is the case, and I don’t know of other examples in the freestyle stroke where I would say stroke alements have synergic effects (they may be present, but I just don't know).

To answer the original question, theoretically for one to experience a progress in a big leap, something in the stroke must have been off to then result in a sudden improvement. Thus, initially, learning will happen in leaps, but with practice, as the mechanics of the stroke improve, there will be fewer mistakes to fix, and progress will become punctuated by smaller increments. For the first 2 years of my TI swimming, I certainly had major leaps forward. Now they are quite rare. I will hope in a few years, my stroke will be honed enough that my progress will be slight, but incremental.

Last edited by FrankJ : 11-06-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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  #43  
Old 11-06-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
I will give it a try…the way I understand it, to talk about synergy we need to begin with two or more separate elements that cause the same effect. For instance, element A heats water to 20 degrees, element B heats water to 30 degrees, but together they heat not to 50 but 60 degrees.

So to answer your question, I would say that the kettle is not a synergic system, as water and kettle, taken individually, they are useless for the sake of obtaining boiled water.

An example of synergy in swimming could be applied to propulsion, if one hypothetically said that kick provides 10% of propulsion, arms 70%, but together they get to 100%. However, I don’t think it is the case, and I don’t know of other examples in the freestyle stroke where I would say stroke alements have synergic effects (they may be present, but I just don't know).

To answer the original question, theoretically for one to experience a progress in a big leap, something in the stroke must have been off to then result in a sudden improvement. Thus, initially, learning will happen in leaps, but with practice, as the mechanics of the stroke improve, there will be fewer mistakes to fix, and progress will become punctuated by smaller increments. For the first 2 years of my TI swimming, I certainly had major leaps forward. Now they are quite rare. I will hope in a few years, my stroke will be honed enough that my progress will be slight, but incremental.
Would we lose anything if we said merely that elements A and B interact to heat the water to 60 degrees? I don't see what using the word 'synergy' adds. Same applies to swimming.

I agree with the final point - see an earlier post of mine responding to Terry.
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  #44  
Old 11-06-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Would we lose anything if we said merely that elements A and B interact to heat the water to 60 degrees? I don't see what using the word 'synergy' adds. Same applies to swimming. ...
From Wikipedia:
"Synergy may be defined as two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable."

The word 'synergy' doesn't add anything. It is just the name for the very effect of 'two or more things functioning together to produce a result not independently obtainable'.

You can peacefully drink the tea produced by a kettle, water, heat and a teabag without ever using the word synergy. You can call it 'merely working together'.
It's just a label. You can say merely 'this thing where you can sit in and drive somewhere' or you can call it a car. The latter is a label, makes communication easier, is more precise and saves some words.

Earlier on you said something like 'Things are always the sum of their parts.' Depends how you mean it. If it means 'things are never more than the sum of their parts' then this is obviously wrong. If it was right - sorry, no tea. If you mean 'things are always the sum of their parts. Sometimes also they are working together to produce a result not independently obtainable' then this is true but the obvious and there is no real point mentioning it.

It seems you originally doubted that things can be more than the sum of their parts. Or what is the whole point here??


P.S. Aren't you British, Lawrence? How can you make tea with water at only 60 degrees? tz, tz,...

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-07-2011 at 06:06 AM.
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  #45  
Old 11-07-2011
forests forests is offline
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Lawrence,
Its quite obvious to me that you are more interested in academic/rhetorical debate than swimming. It seems all you want to do is win an argument or prove a point. A bit of humility on your part would go a long way.
Steve
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  #46  
Old 11-07-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Lawrence,
Its quite obvious to me that you are more interested in academic/rhetorical debate than swimming. It seems all you want to do is win an argument or prove a point. A bit of humility on your part would go a long way.
Steve
Just don't feed the bears and they will go away.
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  #47  
Old 11-07-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Just don't feed the bears and they will go away.
:-)))

There is a certain entertaining value though.

There will always be some jerks that drop a few breadcrumps. As with the pigeons in the park.

As we two are proving here ;-)

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-07-2011 at 06:10 AM.
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  #48  
Old 11-07-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Lawrence, Lawrence, where is your countenance ? I thought you are British?

Doc Sue didn't call you a bear, she was just using a nice proverb to indicate that when no one was reacting to this 'academic' discussion it would drop dead on it's own. Was that intellectually too demanding for you? Too academic? Or couldn't you follow the details? ;-)

Besides that I very much appreciate Doc Sue's comments here I of course don't know her level of swimming abilities. But from her comments it is quite clear that she has got a lot of experience in that area and her input is very valuable. I personally find your input valuable as well, although from a very different viewpoint. Your tendency to appear (to say the least) a little arrogant at times is probably not everybody's taste, I guess. Particularly in this thread it is not even clear what your point is. Your habit to argue seems to be quite strong. Which is ok - when there is a point which is worth arguing. And, just to mention it, I find your general agumentation not particularely strong. You usually and very obviously - like in this discussion - bring up a point, don't really give arguments for it, and then wait to refute any other's viewpoint. As I have said some time ago that is a very easy thing to do, every kid can do it. But I personally don't mind, as I said, it has a certain entertaining value. And I think the points you bring up often create interesting discussions.
I am wondering if you really believe that forests/Steve's point was made because he didn't understood the 'high intellectual level' of this discusssion ? If yes I would get a little concerned. There is no high level of intellect or details in this discussion. And Steve's post showed that he did understand it. You are getting personally insulting. Something that Steve did not do.

Your reaction to Doc Sue: to say 'there are some here who are astonished...' is a bit, how to put it, it is a bit cowardly, isn't it? Either you mention who those 'some' are - and ask them if they agree to publish their opinion here - or you need to say that it is you yourself who is thinking this way. Here you suddenly become British again... don't hide behind 'some here', basically, if you want to stir up some shit, stand your ground at least.


Well, your last post was definitively overdoing it, you became personally insulting to CoachSuzanne. Something that she did not do, either. We are all swimmers here, we share a bit of a same view, we probably are quite different people. We don't want to marry each other. We might like some, and not others. Which is completely virtual since we don't know each other anyway. We can accept or not other people's suggestions but there is no way that we start condemning each others swimming abilities in the way you did it. That is simply below the belt. And, also just to have mentioned it, what is your ground to say that? Where is a video of your swimming? Let's see who is saying all this.


You will have to apologize. It's gonna be flowers at least.




Just a casual breadcrump from an expertise-and mind-exempted swimmer ;-)

Last edited by haschu33 : 11-07-2011 at 11:46 AM.
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  #49  
Old 11-07-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Take a chill pill, haschu! It's just an internet discussion board. Pity you don't find my arguments persuasive. I admit they are tinged with precision and clarity not often found here.

Last edited by Lawrence : 11-07-2011 at 10:18 AM.
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  #50  
Old 11-07-2011
Whisk Whisk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Just don't feed the bears and they will go away.
Best advice in the whole thread
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