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  #21  
Old 10-31-2011
richescott richescott is offline
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The forward velocity of a bicycle is a linear function of the angular velocity of the pedal (assuming the driven wheel doesn't slip and you aren't coasting)
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  #22  
Old 10-31-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Bricks don't interact with each other, so I think that's a poor example. I note no one has given an example of a 'linear' system.
Well. I think you can have a positive or a negative synergetic effect. Or none.

Think of a company that procuces trucks, let's say small trucks. It buys a company that produces big trucks. The synergetic effect can be very positive: larger product palette brings more customers (those that have a need for both and wouldn't buy at the single companies), positive effect when ordering supplies and so on.

If that company buys a company that produces underwear the synergetic might be be zero.

If it buys a company that also produces small trucks but those sell for less money, the synergetic effect can be negative.

And, to have synergy does not necessary mean that the single parts communicate with each other. If you have two coins then they can produce a sound when hitting each other, a quality that the single coin does not have with itself. Or, if you have 5 euros, you can have them in the form of a 5 Euro bank note, again a quality that the single Euro does not have on it's own, it only comes along as a coin.

And, when in swimming you practice kicking with you feet at a ninety degree angle so it moves you backwards, and you combine that with freestyle arm movement, you get a result that is in terms of propulsion in neither directions better than the single parts. The result simply is the addition of the single propulsive effects.

For example. There are probably better examples.
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  #23  
Old 10-31-2011
Mike Wray Mike Wray is offline
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Hi Lawrence,
You stated that the phrase in question had no significance. I explained the significance of the statement. Your question is answered.
A linear system would be where you supplying a pipeline with water from three separate supplies. The increase in total will be related to the increase in each in a linear way. They don't inter react. That's the whole point.
Mike
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  #24  
Old 10-31-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Mike, is a kettle plus water a non-linear system?
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  #25  
Old 10-31-2011
eganov eganov is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I have a further claim: the second view is the correct view. If you adhere to the first view then you're not asking enough of your practice sessions.
My goal is to enjoy swimming first and get better at it along the way. Focusing on the getting better part first puts too much pressure on me at this stage in my life.
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  #26  
Old 11-01-2011
TIJoe TIJoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eganov View Post
My goal is to enjoy swimming first and get better at it along the way. Focusing on the getting better part first puts too much pressure on me at this stage in my life.
Enjoyment is probably the no. 1 and the only common goal all of us here share. Some want to be able swim with silky smooth stroks, some want to maximize/minimize their stroke length/counts, some want to swim faster, some want to swim longer and others may just be happy to be able to swim without breathing problem.

Let's face it, very few here are going to be world beaters in swimming. No one's goal is holier than the others' ...
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  #27  
Old 11-01-2011
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think there are two views as to how one experiences progress with one's freestyle technique.

First view: practice produces continual although incremental improvement.

Second view: improvement consists of incremental progress punctuated by big leaps forward.

I'm in the second camp but would be interested which others put themselves in.

I have a further claim: the second view is the correct view. If you adhere to the first view then you're not asking enough of your practice sessions.
The question suggests a black/white world when the truth - as is virtually always the case - is gray.

I have a question in return: How would you design practice differently if you embraced the 1st view . . . or the 2nd?

Exponential improvement -- i.e. the periodic breathtaking leap that results from longer stretches of seeming lack of progress - - is more likely early in your development of a skill. As you move closer to what you might call 'mastery' it's almost inevitable that improvements will be subtler and more incremental.

I think the larger point is that what really matters is whether you simply accept that your present level of skill or accomplishment is as good as it will get, or that you commit wholly to pursuing improvement.

Do you Work Out to get the yards in or burn calories?

Or do you Practice to improve your swimming in measurable (whether subjective or objective) ways?

Choosing the second view is of far greater consequence than whether the improvements come in large or small increments.
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  #28  
Old 11-01-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Yeap, there was an original question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
I think there are two views as to how one experiences progress with one's freestyle technique.

First view: practice produces continual although incremental improvement.

Second view: improvement consists of incremental progress punctuated by big leaps forward.

I'm in the second camp but would be interested which others put themselves in.

I have a further claim: the second view is the correct view. If you adhere to the first view then you're not asking enough of your practice sessions.
Well, maybe I don't quite understand the question. I don't get the difference between the experience of progress and the view of this experience. I can't see the need for viewing the experience in a certain way. But maybe this is a question of wording only.

My experience is that there is incremental progress that sometimes reveals itself like a 'leap'. Like what I mentioned in my 'discovery of easy'. The point I think is that leaps in progress only occur when you 'work hard' on a particular detail for a certain length of time. Like I spent many hours on stroke details, often with the feeling of no progress at all. Still at every single pool session there was always something - sometimes only a few strokes - where I had the feeling I improved. I dedicated a lot of time to slow, thorough strokes or stroke details, like the mechanics of breathing. That does work out, it will because you store 'good' patterns in your neural system. Whether this progress becomes evident incrementally and constantly or as a leap is not relevant in my view. You just shouldn't give up.
Still I think it is an interesting question why sometimes progress seems to be constant and incremental and sometimes comes in a leap.

One point is that until you 'get' something you don't know what you will get since you don't have the experience yet. So you cannot really work towards this 'it'.
That's why it is crucial to use the brain and develop a method of improving that ensures progress regardless of being able to notice this progress or not. Using the knowledge that we have about the neural system is exactly the key to ensure progress. And that basically is what TI does.

That's why TI works because it ensures exactly that and - this is a very important point - remains open to change when necessary.

But I cannot see how you can would work towards incremental progress or leap progress - it just happens as the result of proper practice in it's own way.

And it always takes time, often more than expected.

Also, a question of right or wrong does not apply, IMHO. Not only that it is not black or white, as Terry said, it also depends on the individual. So another point is to carefuly watch your own practice (in the long run), check what brings progress and what doesn't and adapt your practice to that. I am afraid as a thumb of rule it is always helpful to seek the zone of no comfort and improve in that until it gets comfortable.
Don't worry, there will always be another uncomfortable one after that...


Good you bring up these points, Lawrence.


Hang on in there...
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  #29  
Old 11-01-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Terry's point is well taken that big leaps forward are more typical of earlier learning stages. I should have made that clear, as I had in mind the period before which one feels one has the basics in place. For me there was definitely a short period before which I didn't feel this and after which I did.

To answer Terry's question about how one would design practice differently, my point is that if you find yourself making small improvements but never large ones before reaching the point where you feel the stroke is basically working well, something needs to give, meaning something in your practice or drilling needs changing because what's there isn't working.

I hope this will do as a response to haschu as well, who also makes some good points. I agree there is an 'unknown unknown' one is searching for in trying to achieve a big leap forward. That doesn't mean such leaps are impossible, however, just that trial and error are necessary to home in on the correct technique adjustment.

Perhaps an example will help, since my point wasn't meant to be abstruse. A couple of years ago I realised during a pool session that I wasn't reaching forwards during spearing. As soon as I tried it, a catch appeared and the whole stroke felt different. I knew the theory beforehand but wasn't aware that I hadn't been implementing this part of it (as an aside, I then began noticing that very few non-TI freestylers reach forwards: this part of stroke mechanics seems not to have filtered down to the man in the street, even though evf has). My point is that if you feel the stroke isn't what it should be, you should expect to have experiences like this as you progress. If you don't, something is missing. It might nevertheless be true that regular practice is required in order to have these 'aha' moments.

Last edited by Lawrence : 11-01-2011 at 09:01 AM.
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  #30  
Old 11-01-2011
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
A couple of years ago I realised during a pool session that I wasn't reaching forwards during spearing. As soon as I tried it, a catch appeared and the whole stroke felt different. I knew the theory beforehand but wasn't aware that I hadn't been implementing this part of it (as an aside, I then began noticing that very few non-TI freestylers reach forwards.
Can you elaborate on that ?
What difference do you see in reaching forward and not reaching forward ?
(Surely, everyone is bringing their hand on front on them)
Do you mean straight forward vs crossed over ?
Do you mean straight forward rather than forward-down ?
Do you mean very far forward rather that just forward ?
Do you mean *patiently* forward rather forward and then quickly backward ?
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