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  #1  
Old 01-30-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default bodyrotation and kicking

We all agree that bodyrotation is helped by the 2BK or the rotational kick in a 6BK.
Quite some swimmers have a 2 plus 2 minor kicks, or mostly a one leg kick where one of the kicks is completely working against rotation, that is the kick is at the right time, but from the wrong leg.
What often can be seen is that the kick counters horizontal balance disturbtions, but that the bodyroll isnt influenced very much by the kick from the wrong leg.(although often a smaller kick follows which does help bodyrotation)
So the conclusion could be: the part of the bodyroll that is done by kicking isnt that substantial.
Or should the conclusion be: this swimmer isnt using the kick properly, so his bodyroll is caused by different means (the wrong ones?).
So, what do we think about the kick in the contribution to bodyroll in percentage?

In my experience it depends on the swimspeed and the type of recovery. If swimming with a narrow recovery (zipper drill style), most of the bodyroll seems to come from the kick, helped by a diagonal phase of the underwaterpull possibly.
Higher speeds go together with a more violent switch where roll needs a more punchy kick, so kick seems to get more important at higher speeds.
When recovering wide at lower speeds, the weight of the crane (arm) hanging on one side of the body pulls the body along in rotation more.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-30-2016 at 05:15 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-30-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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What about drills swimming with pull buoy clamped between legs? In that case there is no kick, and the roll must come entirely from other mechanisms.
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  #3  
Old 01-30-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
We all agree that bodyrotation is helped by the 2BK or the rotational kick in a 6BK.
Quite some swimmers have a 2 plus 2 minor kicks, or mostly a one leg kick where one of the kicks is completely working against rotation, that is the kick is at the right time, but from the wrong leg.
What often can be seen is that the kick counters horizontal balance disturbtions, but that the bodyroll isnt influenced very much by the kick from the wrong leg.(although often a smaller kick follows which does help bodyrotation)
So the conclusion could be: the part of the bodyroll that is done by kicking isnt that substantial.
Or should the conclusion be: this swimmer isnt using the kick properly, so his bodyroll is caused by different means (the wrong ones?).
So, what do we think about the kick in the contribution to bodyroll in percentage?

In my experience it depends on the swimspeed and the type of recovery. If swimming with a narrow recovery (zipper drill style), most of the bodyroll seems to come from the kick, helped by a diagonal phase of the underwaterpull possibly.
Higher speeds go together with a more violent switch where roll needs a more punchy kick, so kick seems to get more important at higher speeds.
When recovering wide at lower speeds, the weight of the crane (arm) hanging on one side of the body pulls the body along in rotation more.
How about this interpretation? If we buy in to the idea that swimming should be an inside out process, then the rotation should come from the shoulders and the hips working in concert. Of course, one of the side effects of working the hips is a kicking action, but it is also possible to kick with little or no action from the hips as well, or that the hips may respond differently to the kicking. So maybe the focus when determining body rotation should be the hips and shoulders as opposed to the kicking action? This may be a fine theory, but I confess that I have no idea of how the hips and shoulders are moving in a 6bk, so what I have proposed could also be simply untrue. Just throwing it out there for consideration.
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  #4  
Old 01-30-2016
CoachBillGreentree CoachBillGreentree is offline
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Total body swimming. Everything works in concert or fails to work in concert. Every part affects another part and that affects our stroke. That includes our mind.
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  #5  
Old 01-30-2016
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Zenturtle,

Quote:
..In my experience it depends on the swimspeed and the type of recovery. If swimming with a narrow recovery (zipper drill style), most of the bodyroll seems to come from the kick, helped by a diagonal phase of the underwaterpull possibly.
Higher speeds go together with a more violent switch where roll needs a more punchy kick, so kick seems to get more important at higher speeds.
When recovering wide at lower speeds, the weight of the crane (arm) hanging on one side of the body pulls the body along in rotation more.
Amusing, my subjective(!) experience is fairly different. When swimming narrow and long/slim I neither need more kick nor feeling less help from gravity. Less moment of inertia for rotation?

And at higher speeds (at least higher SR) I've to decrease my kick's ampitude, because the increasing drag helps... If I get shoulder and hip connected...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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When switching from normal stroke to clamping the legs together with pull buoy between knees, the first impression it is restricting body roll. After focussing on maintaining a straigh line and cleaner arm action the body rotaion starts getting back, but it feels most is coming from the front of the body now. Only a little kick/hip initiation is left.
Keeping the line straight and level has a big influence on the ease of bodyrotation.
With very little leg kick/straight line, the spearing and extending with a littl bit of body twist causes body rotation too.

So, what mechanism do we have and what should be the proper relative contribution from these mechanisms?

Some I can think of in no particular order:
Possible bodyroll enhancing actions:
1 Staying straight and level (ok, more a starting point)
2 Holding static tension in a slight twist between diagonal connected foot and opposite side shoolder/elbow/hand.
3 More or less the same but with dynanic kick/hip action,/stretch action.
4 Underwater pull when started at end of body rotation. . Pushing down, pulling back from shoulder to belly . Palm pitch.
Or handling the direction where you anchor your body from.
5 Arm recovery weight hamging outside the centerline.
6 Spearing deep to get waterpressure on top of the arm.
7 Spearing toward the centerline, sort of rolling over the outside of the arm/shoulder.
8 Stroking at a certain rate and rhythm to make the stroke feel like a pendulum. Rocking the boat.
9 Forgot the most important part?

Bodyroll restricting actions:
1a Swimming bend, wide with deep legs.
2a Not having tone enough to keep legs and arm connected.
3a Kicking with the wrong leg/ wrong timing.
4a Start the pull/pushing down before the bodyroll has reached its end.
5a Recovering at the wrong side of the cemterline
6a Spearing too shallow and wide
7a ?

So, even when kicking with the wrong leg, there are enough other compensation mechanisms to choose from to overcompensate that action.

Still, curious to hear what are the proper mechanisms to acquire body rotation and what are the proper relative contributions of these mechanisms.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-02-2016 at 06:01 AM.
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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@ Werner. I think I know what you mean. When swimming tight and long we may be keeping the body more straight and have a relative good forward speed compared to the strokerate. This llow strokerate and relative high speed of oncoming water makes slight bodychanges already make the body corkscrew through the water.
Tight long rod, relatively slow changing rotation speed.
The opposite of the bang bang high rate short stroke style.
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  #8  
Old 02-01-2016
truwani truwani is offline
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Interesting discussion

Just want to share my experience, nothing technically advanced.

What starts to work well FOR ME (I am certainly no coach) is the following:

1) the base comes from a firm steady stretched body like a spring: one arm extended and quite tense, like the upper body and legs

2) with this platform I try to keep my other shoulder as flexible and light as possible: with open shoulder the high elbow and very loose upperarm move forward in the air, trying to accelerate gently. No body rotation yet

3) the crucial point in my experience is to be able to hold this untill the recovery hand enters the water: only then you drive your upper hip down and dive forward into a small tunnel up to a skate position

Currently working on holding this on a breathing stroke: tendency to drive hip directly after breath
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  #9  
Old 02-01-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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I have a very poor left breathing stroke that I am trying to correct by all sorts of remedial drills. As far as I can tell, my problem lies somewhere in the realm of insecurity in holding Right edge skate or awkwardness or difficulty in rotating to the left (i.e.to get to the left breathing position, but may be even from starting from the right roll position), or a combination of both.

I have started doing one armed swimming drills, breathing on the other side. I totally could not do it at all without fins; even with fins, the left arm stroke right side breathing was initially awkward, but soon settled into a ridiculously easy procedure, even at leisurely speed now, with very exactly finessed breathing with mouth half covered at the waterline. The right arm stroke left side breathing was absolutely horrifying initially, but now has been practiced to the point of being merely challenging, and by the end of a length achieving maybe 1 or 2 quite accurate breaths (out of several botched attempts), but requiring high speed and some strain. The difficulty seems to be that on my way rotating to the breath I realise my speed of rotation will not achieve a mouth position high enough for a breath. So I do a bit of a snap or jerk, which usually results in a bit of a bend in the neck axis at the moment of breathing. If I really try, I can get the breath in without arching the neck/upper trunk (or at least not so much), and it seems smoother, but there still is an element of forceful whipping the rotation to get it done in time. In contrast the right side breathing is leisurely and non-panicky and controlled. I think the actual angle of rotation arc achieved on the right is about the same as the left. It's just that my control seems to be way more confident. So the bottom line is that I'm puzzled as to how I'm achieving the rotation -- but I seem to do it well one way and not at all well the other way.

Just practicing in ignorance seems to be slowly helping my left rotation -- on the other hand, I'm afraid that I may be imprinting a whole bunch of ineffective and harmful habits in the process, especially as I'm not exactly sure what's going on. I realise my using fins for this drill complicates the discussion.

I think this is relevant to the discussion -- i.e what exactly is the mechanism of rotation -- or at any rate, any insight would be welcome.
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  #10  
Old 02-01-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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this could be a fun drill
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsrEu8bbEZM
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