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  #11  
Old 07-31-2014
Janos Janos is offline
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My belief is that there are two ends of the scale regarding swim propulsion. One being the arms only, with the focus on the pull and stroke rate,and the other being the torso based TI style. Although there are two different styles of propulsion here, it is possible to swim with a combination of both schools of thought. If you want to swim a purely hip-driven swim style, or a torso driven style in other strokes, then you could use the TI method.
TI training is not what differentiates it from other swim schools, as other schools break the stroke down, it is the fundamental elements of propulsion that differ, and that for me IS Total Immersion.
The unified approach to all strokes that is hinted at in the previous posts is due to the undulatory movement of the body, i.e fishlike, that is more obvious in the short axis strokes, but is applied in a linear fashion for TI freestyle. Which changes the need for pull, to a catch.

Janos
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  #12  
Old 07-31-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janos View Post
... it is the fundamental elements of propulsion that differ, and that for me IS Total Immersion.
The unified approach to all strokes ... is due to the undulatory movement of the body, i.e fishlike, that is more obvious in the short axis strokes, but is applied in a linear fashion for TI freestyle. Which changes the need for pull, to a catch.

Janos
I hadn't picked up what you say about undulatory movement of the body as being something core to TI, nor that it is this undulation that changes the "pull to a catch". Charles' concept of the core moving more as a single unit then would not be compatible with TI, but I may well have misunderstood Charles on this.

Anyway, IF this is the defining feature of TI that distinguishes it from other schools/approaches/styles, then what would then be needed is a form of words e.g

"Total Immersion is a swimming technique applicable to all swimming styles. It uses fishlike body movements to reduce the need for strength in achieving propulsion."

rubbish I agree, I'm not a marketer, but you get my drift.
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  #13  
Old 08-06-2014
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Charles' concept of the core moving more as a single unit then would not be compatible with TI, but I may well have misunderstood Charles on this.
Never mind, I sometimes have a hard time understanding myself ;-)
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  #14  
Old 08-06-2014
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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I'll add my 2 cents as a coach of TI now for 3 years.

I don't know if I can capture it in a single tag line, but here are some thoughts about what is different about TI:

1. TI is science and evidence based. We have looked at real research on what makes for fast swimmers and have developed our techniques from that, not from unproven theories.

2. TI has developed a method for teaching swimming that is proven and extremely effective for TEACHING swimming as a skill. Thus, TI develops GREAT TEACHERS/COACHES of swimming.

3. TI has methods for addressing the smallest movement issues that you may have which can be used in specific situations dependent on the needs of the swimmer. Thus, it is more effective across a broader range of swimmers and their movement issues from small to large.

4. TI focuses on neurological methods of teaching swimming rather than just energy system or strength development.
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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imo Coach you could substitute SS for TI in each of these four points and SS folk would agree with them just as much. So they don't really help me to fly the flag. If I'd made those claims to that coach I was talking to that'd have been an end to the conversation before it had started.

On the other side of thse things, in the ultimate demo video of Shinji and Terry, President and Founder, swimming together http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFmnJnmahLw one thing that shines though in the open water section from 0:11 to 0:27 is the almost motionless legs of the TI style. This seems to me to be something VERY striking and something completely unique to TI. It is something other coaches not only do NOT subscribe to but argue strongly against. Even Charles on this forum often takes issue with this aspect of TI. What %-age of non-TI coaches do you know/see who train WITHOUT kicking drills and floats? Dispite this though, non-kicking, or flick kicking, or whatever TI wants to badge it, doesn't get a mention. Why?

Isn't what's being sought here in this thread a USP for Ti, the thing that marks TI out as different? Having a USP inevitably focuses supporters and detractors alike. That's the point, to be distinct.

Personally I like the idea of a swimming style that is meditational and process orientated rather than athletic and goal oriented. It fits with my philosophy, beliefs, life, and now with my ageing. However the reality seems to me that TI keeps a strong focus on performance, on Iron Man triathlons, and long distance records. The two are inimicable. TI emerges from athletics, and while yoga etc may help with a sport as with anything else it is what it is and that isn't a sport.

At the moment sitting on the fence looks/feels uncomfortable to me. The resolution that I apply to the dilemma presented is that TI is a technique and style of swimming (unclear exactly what this is though), even more than a teaching methodology, and that this technique lends itself very well to process oriented practice. It may also lend itself to a performance that goes beyond the above average but while that's interesting it's not relevant to me personally.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #16  
Old 08-16-2014
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Talvi,

just read some lines in Terry's "How Swimming works" (preprint). I think one very speciality for TI is the BSP-Pyramid (Balance-Streamline-Propulsion). I don't know other books about swimming than TI (guilty: and Swim Smooth...) But Terry's brilliant way of teaching FS was revolutionary when he founded TI. (Terry is very modest and gives honor to Bill Boomer). Start with balance, then streamline then propulsion and every (mini-)step individual fit to your body and your brain/mind and your demand!

That's as genial as Tarrasch, a chess grand master, had written in the 1940s(?) a chess book where he advocated to start learning the end game (with only a fiew chess pieces), then the middle game with some more and very last the most difficult opening game. Just other way round as before. Today most chess helpers go this way.

When your local coach says: Nothing new there. This may be right. Amazing is, the same parts of the puzzle result in a totally different picture and fit as well as before... or a little better...

Best regards,
Werner
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  #17  
Old 08-18-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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I think to come up with a strapline that encompasses 'What is TI' is a tough one. In fact to the people I have spoken to about my swimming and TI, I just want them to go see if for themselves rather than rely on my explanation - it is almost like trying to describe colours to a person who has never seen colour before. It isn't the words I use to explain it that is likely to get them interested or curious, rather my belief that it works and the passion I now have for swimming that comes across when I speak. As a result I have made several referrals to the local TI coach.

I share Talvi's reasons for swimming, although I do set myself goals and am competitive with myself, I'm not ironman orientated. But I think there is scope for the TI style in all types of swimming, whether for competition or not. Even at one of my son's swim galas I spotted a beautiful smooth swimmer, who when I looked closely had a 2 beat kick. She was fast and it was a sprint race and the 2 beat kick didn't appear to slow her down compared to her competitors.

So yes, an all explaining strapline of what TI is would be useful, but I have no suggestions as to what it could be! So....not a very useful posting of mine then really!
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  #18  
Old 08-19-2014
PapaJoe PapaJoe is offline
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Hi, 2cents from a humble noob here :-) I've done some copywriting, and quite a bit of communication incl marketing on the web, so I'll hazard an opinion:
I'm sorry but the text draft didn't really appeal to me at all. Show, don't tell - this is the web and Images and video should definitively be the focus. Post a new vid of Shinji in HD, that 90 year old dude, whatever - and tailor the text to what you've got. IF the visitor stays, then hit her with text. And please don't spend money on "slick&professional" production, that doesn't cut it on the web - do a competion (eg for swimming lessons from one of you top coaches) instead and you might just get a load of vids from your fans. Or just get a passable cameraman to film some new footage of you coaches - you all look impressive swimming, but there's not really a lot of stuff out there that's HD, well cut and nicely angled - and with loads of underwater angles. Terrys vids are great, but they are instructional, what you need is inspirational and inviting.
That being said: What characterizes TI for me is the relentless focus on balance and streamline before propulsion. No other method I've come across has this clear and persistent focus, speed and propulsion is usually dominant, whatever the introductions claim :-) It should come as no surprise that the elements of effective swimming are "nothing new" - its the method and the focus that's different.
So my definition would be something like this: TI is the ultimate way to learn effortless swimming. In TI establishing a balanced and streamlined form that works with the water instead of fighting against it is essential. Any effort you then spend on propulsion can be used to maximum efficiency, and help you achieve your goals - be it faster speed, greater distance, or just a feeling of total harmony in water.
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  #19  
Old 09-15-2014
Talvi Talvi is offline
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After watching this again I have to put in my observation that THE thing that distinguishes TI from other schools of freestyle must be its almost zero-kick. The video shows this facet of the TI stroke really strikingly, especially in the OW and paired swimming sections. Astonishingly clear.

... assuming that video IS the ultimate demo of TI swimming.

p.s
An afterthought is that TI seems to be distinguished from the rest by its slow swimming tempos. For instance, in the OW on this video or in those posted by CoachStuartMcDougal of the TI6 relay team that swam the channel, the tempo is just over one stroke a second (Steve West does about 67 or 0.90 on the TT). In the pool shots on the video their tempo is about 48 strokes/min (1.25 on a TT). Other videos I checked have the coaches swimming in a band between about 0.95 and 1.25 TT tempos.

I haven't seen TI in sprinting/racing at higher tempos. Had to check and found Sun Yang swims 1500m at 64 stk/min (0.94 TT) but "normal" olympians at about 72 (0.84 TT), and they do 100m at 92 or even 120 strk/min (0.65 - 0.5 TT). I managed to find a video of a high school race and they were also doing 120 strk/min - crazeee!! Anyway, this is not my interest but TI addresses or seems to want to address that speed crowd as well, if I am not mistaken, and this seems on the face of it to be a contradiction. If on the other hand TI is suitable for these higher tempos then are there any coach videos demonstrating it?

p.s.s
I was surprised to discover that Terry's normal spear (on the video) is far flatter than on the DVD I've got. Makes sense and looked really nice.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #20  
Old 09-17-2014
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I haven't seen TI in sprinting/racing at higher tempos. Had to check and found Sun Yang swims 1500m at 64 stk/min (0.94 TT) but "normal" olympians at about 72 (0.84 TT), and they do 100m at 92 or even 120 strk/min (0.65 - 0.5 TT). I managed to find a video of a high school race and they were also doing 120 strk/min - crazeee!! Anyway, this is not my interest but TI addresses or seems to want to address that speed crowd as well, if I am not mistaken, and this seems on the face of it to be a contradiction. If on the other hand TI is suitable for these higher tempos then are there any coach videos demonstrating it?
Hi Talvi.......listen to the opening few seconds of this video of Terry describing Perpetual Motion Freestyle.

http://youtu.be/s5kTKpKFbXk

I've heard him say something similar before and I went looking for that video and found this one instead, but the message is the same..... "If you want to sprint short distances TI isn't for you". Unless I'm misinterpreting it?........

J
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