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  #81  
Old 07-05-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Salvo, yes I guess we are the only two participating in this conversation right now, but that comes and goes. I think Tom said something about taking a break from swimming for a summer job.

Anyway, most of what you wrote above sounds like good advice. I myself have been out of the pool now for almost 3 weeks, but I am ready to get back in. In the US, where I am, most of my standard pools are closed because this week is a holiday. I am ready now to drive a little further to find a pool, and I may do that tomorrow. I should be swimming in lakes right now, and the brief times I have gotten wet were in a local lake, but I am allergic to something in the water and the longer I stay in a lake the more likely it is that my sinus will prevent me from sleeping for the next few nights. I guess this is a little like USRPT. .. If I get water in my mouth when breathing more than 3 times, I am out of there.

Enjoy your swimming!

Last edited by Danny : 07-05-2017 at 03:54 PM.
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  #82  
Old 07-05-2017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s.sciame View Post
Green zone is a general indicator of stroke efficiency but I wouldn't be too concerned about it because:

- if you hardwire super slow rates just to fit the green zone you're not doing yourself a favour
- it's based on the fact that your DPS should be 50-70% of your wingspan. Translating this to SPL depends on the individual and it's never precise: how long are your pushoffs? Are all identical within a session? Flip turns or open turns? These variables affect the amount of distance you actually cover by swimming within 25m.
- it's based on stroke efficiency (ie 50-70% of wingspan rule). I prefer thinking of efficiency in terms of outcome/effort, where outcome is the pace you swim at and effort is in term of heart rate and perceived effort (RPE). I always like to play with different gears that yeld a given pace and I notice that often times the most sustainable gears are the ones where I'm above the green zone (20-21SPL, I'm 183cm).

Today for instance I did the following usrpt(ish) set the TI way:

3 rounds of 10x75m at (under) 1:26/100m pace on 20s rest with TT in mode 3 (SPM).

I currently have 3 favourite gears to hold this pace: 67SPM/19SPL, 70SPM/20SPL, 73SPM/21SPL....
Salvo,

If you are referring to the "Green Zone" chart, that has a factor of 5 meters for the flight off the wall, so stroking a true 20 meters. If your flight off the wall is more or less, you will need to take that into account, i.e. 19m stroked (after 6m flight off wall) / spl. Given your metrics, they line up with your overall times (without walls/turns); based on your height 183cm, 19, 20, 21 is in the green zone sl/height 58%, 55%, and 51% respectively. So it looks as if your turn and flight off the wall is consistent. Triathletes typically have a poor and inconsistent turn and I remove their turns altogether and only use their spl and distance stroked to calculate their ow pace(s) since there are no turns or walls in ow triathlons.

So while turns and flight off the wall can introduce errors as you note, it's easy to remove that factor and focus solely on the meters stroked. As for pool events it's a good practice to separate starts/turns from meters stroked too since this will give swimmer choices as whether the flight off the wall should be longer or shorter to hit their best overall times, especially in longer distance events 800, 1500 etc - and whether long course or short course.

Stuart
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  #83  
Old 07-06-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Thanks Stuart, I was referring to this chart:

https://smoothstrokes.files.wordpres...graph-25md.png

According to the chart, at 21SPL I should be out of the green zone, anyway I get your point.

By the way, I always found it tricky to measure exact DPS in the pool by myself: an error of 1 or 2 inches repeated for many strokes may become a big error. In the pool you have a reset every length so it's less noticeable. Maybe it would be more reliable to count the strokes in the 2nd half of a 50m pool, don't know.

Salvo
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  #84  
Old 07-06-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Stuart, are you saying that the green zone is anything where stroke length to height is greater than 50%? Or better yet, stroke length to wing span?
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  #85  
Old 07-06-2017
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Danny,

Yup, it's stroke length/height (or wingspan) = xx%. Yes at least 50% and higher height to stroke length, but I have (or prefer) my swimmers in the 60's and above, mid to high 60's for longer distance. I'm coaching a 15-16 yo sprinter, she's 100spm, 17 spl in 19 yards, 67" tall is at 60%. Sun Yang is upwards of 73% wingspan to stroke length in 1500m event. Wingspan is best, but height is usually close enough since our height and wingspan are very close. Male wingspan is typically a bit longer than height, females usually the same or a bit shorter. I'm 173 tall (68"), wingspan 178 (70"); Shinji however 173 tall, wingspan 185 (73"). Wingspan is the better factor, but everyone knows their height for initial assessment.

Salvo,

Yeah - It looks like Matt's chart accounts for 6m flight off the wall, not 5m. But charts are fixed and are intended to see if you are in the ballpark. Doing your own math is best, stroke length/height = green-zone%. Yes, using the 25m line, if your long course pool has one (not all LC pools do), is the best count and removes the flight off the wall factor. But the more strokes you swim (i.e. long course), the stroke length average is more accurate.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 07-06-2017 at 03:30 PM.
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  #86  
Old 07-06-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Thanks, Stuart, that helps. I can maintain a larger DPS at the same speed for short distances, but for longer distances I can't hold it and I prefer to increase my stroke rate and reduce my SPL. So I am a little surprised that you seem to feel that the larger DPS is easier for distance. How do you interpret this?
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  #87  
Old 07-06-2017
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SPL (or stroke length) and tempo are very personal to each swimmer, whatever works best, but always have a range to work in - as Salvo noted having multiple gears.

Increasing stroke length usually comes with slower tempo. Lower (slower) tempo or rate of turnover = lower workload. As for my sprinter she came to me with 110spm, 19-20+ spl, but began fading on 3rd length, and closer to 100spm last 25. So reduced her workload to 100spm each 25, increased stroke length and she is now negative split on her 100, easily holding 100spm, consistent 17spl, sometimes 16.5.

I just do the math, come up with several choices for each swimmer, different tempos and stroke lengths and pick the best one given their height, skill level, and distance (or event) they're swimming. Stroking faster does not necessarily mean your are swimming faster although perception always leads us that way. It's both stroke length and tempo that determine speed or velocity - and given those two which one can you sustain for the distance or event you're swimming.

Stuart
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  #88  
Old 07-06-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Thanks, Stuart, I think I understand. Lower tempo does not always mean lower workload. In my case, I am swimming much slower than the swimmers you train. When I lower my DPS I think it results in significant deceleration between strokes and this means I have to accelerate again to hold my pace, so this may mean a higher workload for me. There seems to be a happy medium for me, which is distance dependent. Generally speaking, the longer the distance the higher my optimal stroke rate and the lower my DPS. I find that if I set my TT to a fixed stroke rate and swim 50 m intervals vs. 300 m intervals, I am swimming the 50m faster even at the same stroke rate. This would mean that my DPS is also greater at 50 m, but presumably I am expending more energy to do it also, so I get worn down.
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  #89  
Old 07-06-2017
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Yeah - I recall you being kinda stuck in slower tempos. What tempo and spl do you feel comfortable to sustain freestyle for 300m?

But even at the slower tempos, if you are feeling a drastic deceleration/acceleration something else is eating up your energy and its not slow tempo, some imbalance that legs and arms trigger to pull/kick out of for stability (i.e. pause at hip, arching back, lead arm scooping toward surface, lifting recovery elbow early stunting recovery, etc). The slower tempos just magnify imbalance issues.

Anyway, calculating your 100, 300, ... pace is straight forward

Speed: SL x SPM (measured in meters per minute)
100m pace: 100/mpm
300m pace: 300/mpm
1500m pace: ....

i.e.
Choice #1
SPL: 21, SL: .95m, SPM: 73
Speed: 69.7 meters per minute
100m pace: 100/69.7 = 1.44 minutes or 1:26

Choice #2
SPL: 17, SL: 1.18m, SPM: 60
Speed: 70.6 meters per minute
100m pace: 100/70.6 = 1.42 minutes or 1:25

These are straight swim pace calculations without walls/turns. Do the math, discover some choices in SL and tempo that work for you given height, current skill, and is sustainable for the distance or event .

Stuart
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  #90  
Old 07-07-2017
Danny Danny is offline
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Hi Stuart, yes, I've been working at upping my stroke rate after discussions with you. These days I feel comfortable swimming 300 m at a pace of about 1.25 s/stroke. I can up the rate even further, but I think I do this by coming out earlier in the back and thus shortening my stroke. Not sure, but I think I may be hitting an SPL of 23 or so when I do this. (I swim only occasionally in a 25 m pool). My pace for 300 m usually lies between about 2:10 and 2:15/100 m. I would love to get below 2:00/100 m, and I can certainly do that for 50 or 100 m, but not for 300.
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