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  #1  
Old 04-12-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Default Stroke leftovers after 42 km

What is left of someones stroke after swimming 42 km non-stop?
Is it the essence of the stroke?
Is it something that is comfortable to sustain for extremely long times, but not the most optimal for higher speeds?

Looking at extreme distance swimmers, their strokes often look more comfortable than efficient although almost always their balance is very good.
What strikes me is the preference for the extension on the midline. This is much more common than extending at shoulder with. Also in talented life long swimmers.
Does this mean anything?

Maarten vd Weijden after 11 hours, 42 km pool swimming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Jw7_xa-yM

And his race stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZ8dP5Bnso

Ultra long distance swimmer Diana Nayad is very extreme in shooting for the midline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APZK...&nohtml5=False
Conclusion?

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-12-2016 at 09:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 04-13-2016
truwani truwani is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
What is left of someones stroke after swimming 42 km non-stop?
Is it the essence of the stroke?
Is it something that is comfortable to sustain for extremely long times, but not the most optimal for higher speeds?

Looking at extreme distance swimmers, their strokes often look more comfortable than efficient although almost always their balance is very good.
What strikes me is the preference for the extension on the midline. This is much more common than extending at shoulder with. Also in talented life long swimmers.
Does this mean anything?

Maarten vd Weijden after 11 hours, 42 km pool swimming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Jw7_xa-yM

And his race stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZ8dP5Bnso

Ultra long distance swimmer Diana Nayad is very extreme in shooting for the midline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APZK...&nohtml5=False
Conclusion?
Indeed sometimes it even looks like crossing the midline to me

And at the end of the race Maarten seems to swim with his head up

Do not know the conclusion, but I am amazed of the proportion of propulsion that seems to come from another source than balancing/swimming on 3 lines/...: maybe an excellent catch combined with a very powerful pull?
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  #3  
Old 04-13-2016
descending descending is offline
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descending
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
What is left of someones stroke after swimming 42 km non-stop?
Is it the essence of the stroke?
Is it something that is comfortable to sustain for extremely long times, but not the most optimal for higher speeds?

Looking at extreme distance swimmers, their strokes often look more comfortable than efficient although almost always their balance is very good.
What strikes me is the preference for the extension on the midline. This is much more common than extending at shoulder with. Also in talented life long swimmers.
Does this mean anything?

Maarten vd Weijden after 11 hours, 42 km pool swimming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Jw7_xa-yM

And his race stroke:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sZ8dP5Bnso

Ultra long distance swimmer Diana Nayad is very extreme in shooting for the midline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APZK...&nohtml5=False
Conclusion?
I had no idea who he was until I saw his Oly race footage I don't follow open water swimmers much. Great looking loping open water stroke. That 42k's is insane the mental drain ugh what a stud. This is where I think having spent time experimenting with different aspects of stroke shape, stroke rate, arm depth etc are invaluable. I have 3 significantly different freestyle strokes depending on the task required(the commonalities being balance and head position). My cool down stroke which is what I'd resort to for 42k's is essentially a 90 percent catch up stroke completely focused on relaxing as much as I can. Forget stroke length, forget stroke rate, get plenty of oxygen exchanged and recover for the next set and just keep moving. Then a loping stroke for everything else up to and including threshold levels and lastly a pure sprint stroke for short stuff.
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Old 04-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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So you are basically also using these 3 styles. The first one probably a bit more sloppy to take it easy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fC_QCMW1Xs

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-13-2016 at 11:26 AM.
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  #5  
Old 04-13-2016
descending descending is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
So you are basically also using these 3 styles. The first one probably a bit more sloppy to take it easy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fC_QCMW1Xs
More or less. I don't use as much of a bent elbow it's straighter on my easy stroke. On the sprint stroke very little elbow bend, very littel rotation below waist kicking banshee. Loping stroke my non breathing side which is hip driven it's more bent, but on shoulder driven side/breathing side it's a bit less elbow bend. Too much elbow bend makes me feel 'stop start', but a little less it feels like a flywheel once it gets moving. I would say if I had to find a stroke I'd use transitioning to open water racing it would be my loping stroke it's really good when conditions get tough. Then again you are never going to see me do a race over 2.4 miles it bores me to death to swim one pace all day long just not my cup of tea! Not sure I'd even do another IM relay swim one was good enough for me. Maybe if there is free beer and a t-shirt this time;)

Last edited by descending : 04-13-2016 at 12:04 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-13-2016
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Location: Rome, Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
What is left of someones stroke after swimming 42 km non-stop?
Is it the essence of the stroke?
Is it something that is comfortable to sustain for extremely long times, but not the most optimal for higher speeds?
Very interesting videos. Curious to know what pace he was holding with that recovery stroke by the way. So the next question could be: what pace is left once you have switched off propulsion/fast rate and rely only on balance and streamline? That seems a very leisure pace, anyway if I read well (or could you translate something from the speech) he completed the marathon in around 10h15'? Averaging under 1:28 per 100m? Oh my :)

Dyana Nayad seems to also show a dropped elbow. If I didn't know who she is I would have said she's a beginner. So yes, what's left is balance and breathing, keep both and swim forever.

Salvo
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  #7  
Old 04-13-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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it was 10h 37 min for 42,2 km.
Thats about 1.31 min/100m avarage pace done in a LCM pool.
He trained by swimming 6-7 hours non/stop, so I guess his speed decay follows a normal line.
Dont know the exact formula to calculate start and end speed for a SDI of 1.06?
Guess his slowest pace is faster than 1.40 min/100m for a survival on minimal energy stroke.
He complained the most of not being able to lift the arms and shoulder pain, but had pain everywhere in the end.
It was all set up to raise money for cancer research.

found some footage from the starting stroke and the ending stroke, and some underwater footage of the fresh stroke.
He went very easy from the start so it didnt change much during the day.. Very very little kick in his stroke from the start to the end.
His balance and alignment are very good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BoeJAUnXpI (from the 4 min mark)
A not advised hand upsweep after arm entry, but he has a pretty complex underwaterpull. Seems to me he is scooping the water up a bit when the arm is around shoulder height like scooping ice with a icespoon.
This can help to pull his front down a bit instead if pushing it up. This happens almost at the same time as the other hands scoops up, so possibly both effects are canceling each others small vertical force.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-13-2016 at 11:36 PM.
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