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  #41  
Old 02-16-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Hey Fooboo, do you have some swimming background?
Your comments are quite intriguing.
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  #42  
Old 02-16-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Untill age 12 I always was the strongest kid in class. Going to highschool I became friends with a boy that was a little bit stronger and was faster on a bike too.
Guess what......He was a competetive swimmer.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 02-16-2015 at 04:22 PM.
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  #43  
Old 02-16-2015
mjm mjm is offline
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Default Swim smarter before you try to swim harder

“Brain training in Total Immersion practice is more than just teaching muscles to fire with precision – it is foremost concerned with teaching the body to find the path of least resistance forward before trying to applying more power to go faster on that path. There is no point taking the harder way forward through the water if the swimmer doesn’t have to. It’s also simply more dangerous to take a harder path forward. So, even before training muscles to generate more power, we are training the body to detect and stay within that path of least resistance, then fire muscles with precision within that critical zone.
Needless to say, weight training does nothing to help a swimmer find that path of least resistance forward.
Learn to swim smarter before you try to swim harder.”

From Mat Hudsons’ Blog Post: Weight Training for Swimming http://mediterraswim.com/2014/11/15/...-for-swimming/
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  #44  
Old 02-17-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danm View Post
I never expected so many answers, but I think this shows that many others are thinking about this matter. Thank you all for chiming in.

I know I wasn't very specific in what I meant about strength, but that's probably because I wasn't sure how to express my thoughts. Coach David Shen did that for me - I certainly wasn't thinking about the bulk muscles a bodybuilder has, I don't believe those would trully help swimmers, but as coach David said, strength as the "ability to generate tension" is what I meant. I think that will help with swimming as well as with basic strength exercises like pull-ups, etc.

Also, I don't think the debate is about what's most important, technique or strength. I think that if you have none, technique should come first, but after you've reached a certain level strength must be added if you want to progress. Or maybe even sooner, as I do believe there are parts of the techical requirements that can't be accomplished without a certain body strength. Coach David did mention some of those.

Coach Suzzane - interestingly enough I'm at about the same level in terms of times. I also can't do a single pull without needing hospitalization afterwards;) I'm planning to start a strength training programme though so I guess I'll be reporting back in a couple of months...

We can have a competition. :) Friendly of course. How tall are you by the way? I'm 5'3" with a wingspan about 5'4"
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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USA Paralympic Triathlon Coach
Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
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  #45  
Old 02-17-2015
davidprice davidprice is offline
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Default more on strength...

Like many enthusiastic about TI I came from a running background. What I have not heard much of, in this string of conversation, is how 'strength' relates to the ability to continue when the lactic acid in your blood begins to tell you to take a break. I surmise that truly competitive distance swimmers and runners are both adept at managing the former.

So, to me part of it comes down to the ability to continue doing work when faced with the physio-chemical challenges that take place in a persons' body during virtually any endurance activity, swimming, running, or biking. Additionally, work, from the engineering-physics perspective, is equal to applied force multiplied by the distance which it is applied. For instance, raising 1,000 lb of bricks 10 feet is the same done all at once in 1 second, or one brick at a time. The ability to do that much work in 1 second speaks to the power capacity of the 'engine' doing the work. Right, the car with the higher horsepower 'engine' has a better chance to win the race. Assuming you're in it to win it.

Runners historically have used interval training to condition their bodies to manage the build-up of lactic acid thereby preparing them to be more competitive in a race. By reducing the recovery time between repetitions an athlete could in theory increase their chance to run longer before succumbing to fatigue. Swimmers also engage in interval training. Part of interval training has to do with using a repetition time that is slower than your fastest. In time the rest can be shortened or the speed of the repetition increased. Repetitions should not be performed all-out, OK. There needs to be a smart starting point based on the individuals level/ability.

When I started my TI journey I wanted to swim relaxed and continuously as I could run relaxed for long distance. It's getting better, not quite satisfied. I get to the point where I roll over to back stroke for a few seconds then back to freestyle. But, like many in this string I would like to do 1 km to 1.5 km continuous by freestyle.

I know I have said little about TI technique or philosophy, which I think is absolutely critical to continuous freestyle swimming. To me it truly is amazing to harvest little bits of swim technique even after a whole swim season. Somehow I think there is a conditioning factor that might help in this topic.
Any other similar thoughts/experiences?

Best Always,

Dave P.
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  #46  
Old 02-17-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Coach Suzanne, in your old 100m swim videos your stroke falls apart rather fast.
I assume you can hold technique together longer now.
What do think is tha main cause of better staying power?
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  #47  
Old 02-17-2015
danm danm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
We can have a competition. :) Friendly of course. How tall are you by the way? I'm 5'3" with a wingspan about 5'4"

I'm 175cm high, wingspan 180cm. I think that's 5'9" with 5'11" wingspan. Competition is on!
;)
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  #48  
Old 02-17-2015
danm danm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjm View Post
“Brain training in Total Immersion practice is more than just teaching muscles to fire with precision – it is foremost concerned with teaching the body to find the path of least resistance forward before trying to applying more power to go faster on that path. There is no point taking the harder way forward through the water if the swimmer doesn’t have to. It’s also simply more dangerous to take a harder path forward. So, even before training muscles to generate more power, we are training the body to detect and stay within that path of least resistance, then fire muscles with precision within that critical zone.
Needless to say, weight training does nothing to help a swimmer find that path of least resistance forward.
Learn to swim smarter before you try to swim harder.”

From Mat Hudsons’ Blog Post: Weight Training for Swimming http://mediterraswim.com/2014/11/15/...-for-swimming/
I'm willing to bet that Coach Mat can do 10 pull-ups without blinking ;)
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  #49  
Old 02-17-2015
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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I found pull ups improved very quickly.

About 3 years ago, Coach Suzanne was investigating P90x so I joined in too. There's a lot of push and pull ups in that program.

On day 1 I could do 3 or 4, 10 by the end of the first week and 25 or more with good form by day 40.

For me the easiest way to do strength training with TI is to follow Terry's advice and use the winter to do lots of shorter intervals with high speed low SPL. This added gear builds strength but only in swimming needed locations.
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  #50  
Old 02-17-2015
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidprice View Post
Like many enthusiastic about TI I came from a running background. What I have not heard much of, in this string of conversation, is how 'strength' relates to the ability to continue when the lactic acid in your blood begins to tell you to take a break. I surmise that truly competitive distance swimmers and runners are both adept at managing the former.

So, to me part of it comes down to the ability to continue doing work when faced with the physio-chemical challenges that take place in a persons' body during virtually any endurance activity, swimming, running, or biking. Additionally, work, from the engineering-physics perspective, is equal to applied force multiplied by the distance which it is applied. For instance, raising 1,000 lb of bricks 10 feet is the same done all at once in 1 second, or one brick at a time. The ability to do that much work in 1 second speaks to the power capacity of the 'engine' doing the work. Right, the car with the higher horsepower 'engine' has a better chance to win the race. Assuming you're in it to win it.

Runners historically have used interval training to condition their bodies to manage the build-up of lactic acid thereby preparing them to be more competitive in a race. By reducing the recovery time between repetitions an athlete could in theory increase their chance to run longer before succumbing to fatigue. Swimmers also engage in interval training. Part of interval training has to do with using a repetition time that is slower than your fastest. In time the rest can be shortened or the speed of the repetition increased. Repetitions should not be performed all-out, OK. There needs to be a smart starting point based on the individuals level/ability.

When I started my TI journey I wanted to swim relaxed and continuously as I could run relaxed for long distance. It's getting better, not quite satisfied. I get to the point where I roll over to back stroke for a few seconds then back to freestyle. But, like many in this string I would like to do 1 km to 1.5 km continuous by freestyle.

I know I have said little about TI technique or philosophy, which I think is absolutely critical to continuous freestyle swimming. To me it truly is amazing to harvest little bits of swim technique even after a whole swim season. Somehow I think there is a conditioning factor that might help in this topic.
Any other similar thoughts/experiences?

Best Always,

Dave P.
some comments on the above -

first we are land based creatures. our familiarity and practice at land based movements is far superior than us in water. if we train 3 hours a week but have 7x16 = 112 waking hours, that's only 2.6% of our awake time spent in the water versus us being on solid ground. we have a lot of catching up to do with training simple movement patterns in water!

think next on golf and tennis - if anyone has tried either sport, i bet that you have quickly figured out that simply trying to hit the ball harder in either sport will yield you exponentially poor results, and that training to hit the ball harder, aka i'm gonna build strength to be able to hit the ball harder, isn't the best use of your time.

but yet we think swimming is different.

i like to equate swimming to golf or tennis - it is very skill based but yet we seem to think that strength is all that matters. in fact, yes it does. as in my previous post, you need some minimal level of strength to perform the movements.

i have clients who appeared to be ok moving around in land but shown to possess little strength in performing swimming movements. for them, we have to bring them up the minimal strength curve.

but once they get there, we can then begin the real technique work. strength and conditioning does increase there naturally. but neuroadaptation and learning take precedence, just like in golf and tennis.

if there is anything i've learned in racing ironman, it's that endurance by far is easy to build when compared to strength, which takes a LOT more time. and then, building endurance on top of strength is another challenge, which is taking your new found power generation into distance and time.

at some point in your swim training (for me it was about 2-3 years after i initially started on my TI journey), you have mastered neurologically the basic swim movements and also balance, streamline and basic propulsion. now you're ready to take that into time/distance/speed. neurological based training can take you pretty far. strength also increases when the body can efficiently create movements, thus creating more power without wasting it in extraneous movements. so you're building strength already - whoo hoo!

but after a long time, you'll plateau here too. inevitably in your quest to optimize, assuming you've really mastered everything else, there will be nothing left to optimize but building basic physical strength. however, it's our experience that this is a LONG time from now, given that we only spend 2.6% (or something like that) in the water per week, and we have a lot of learning that we can do which is really increasing your strength and power output simply by making movements in the water medium more efficient.

so yeah, there will be some natural adaptation for conditioning as you swim longer distance sets and become more efficient. at some point, if you're into racing, you'll eventually hit some point where it will be about your energy systems and you've maximized everything else.

i would guess that if you think you've hit that point now and you can't do a typical swim set or masters workout of 2000-4000m, i would encourage you to get videoed and look at yourself. it is much more likely that something else is happening and there is opportunity for improvement well before the point of needing to work on energy system sets.
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