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  #21  
Old 01-26-2015
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
Ok on everything else you said, but something about your description triggers a memory of very specific advice from a TI coach to me NOT to do that; i.e. the advice was specifically to (correctly) enter the water like mailing a letter through a mail slot, i.e. with the hand held horizontally, even though the recovering arm had been rotated so the elbow led through the first phase of the recovery.
Perhaps I should have said that the angle is subtle and is only there because of the position the shoulder is in and the hand is relaxed. Trying it on dry land produces the same results, leading with the elbow, with me at any rate, turns the palm slightly outwards.
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  #22  
Old 01-26-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default Going back up the thread a bit ;)

Thanks especially Kurb, Suzanne and David Shen for your observations on my video. Nice comments.

Something you guys didn't point to is the transition between my catch and pull.

The issue I see here is apparent in the video at 0:34 and especially at 1:09, but I've isolated a still and attach it here, together with a comparison still at the same point in the cycle from a Shinji video. The difference I see between the two is that my elbow is so much closer to my body (ok, I also look more like a broiler!).

It looks striking and I'd appreciate your comments on it.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Shinji.jpg (8.6 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg Me.jpg (13.0 KB, 12 views)
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #23  
Old 01-26-2015
jafaremraf jafaremraf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Thanks especially Kurb, Suzanne and David Shen for your observations on my video. Nice comments.

Something you guys didn't point to is the transition between my catch and pull.

The issue I see here is apparent in the video at 0:34 and especially at 1:09, but I've isolated a still and attach it here, together with a comparison still at the same point in the cycle from a Shinji video. The difference I see between the two is that my elbow is so much closer to my body (ok, I also look more like a broiler!).

It looks striking and I'd appreciate your comments on it.
FWIW, I see different timings going on here.... Shinji looks like he hasn't switched his rotation yet? His body is still on his right track, you are on your left. An observation, not an answer - sorry.
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  #24  
Old 01-26-2015
danm danm is offline
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here's what I see
But:
- you drop your elbow immediately after entry. the hand enters, then goes up, letting the elbow down while the hand effectively puts on the brakes before moving down and starting to catch the water
- also, you don't turn the arm outwards to get into an effective catch. this was mentioned already by someone, I think
- you kick from the knee, with a deep knee flexion which almost stops you in your track. the knee should not bend that much, the main movement of the leg should start in the abdominal muscles, then trickle down through the leg, not start at the knee
- your cadence is very slow. if you want to swim faster (not sure if this is your objective) you need to increase the cadence

I think this is pretty basic stuff; whether this is because of flexibility or other reasons I don't know, but one way or the other you'll have to address all these things if you want to improve.
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  #25  
Old 01-26-2015
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Lots of really good advice so far, and welcome to KURB, for a "junior member" your comments are clear and insightful. In addition to upper body advice, I see a couple things and am probably stating the obvious:

1) Arch in the back. I think this is somehow exaggerated by the video, the shortening of the aspect ratio and the go-pro's wide angle distortions. It looks like a pretty serious outsway of the butt. Do you ever have lower back pain after a swim? I sense a TI focus shift lately to posture, and straightness of the core alignment. Am working on this a lot myself. So think about that tummy tuck, pull in your butt. You know the position... after a big dinner, long drive, no rest stop in sight, hours since your last pit stop, trying to hold in the log... :-\

2) Kicking from the knee. Terry talks about this in the new book. Think about the size of the lever and the muscles driving it. If you're kicking from the knee, you have about an 18-20" lever and you're using leg muscles to drive it. If you kick from the hip you have a 30-35" lever and have your gluts to drive it. And there's that little parachute you open up everything you pull the heel back. So typical TI, work on the streamlining.

p.s. your balance looks great!
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  #26  
Old 01-26-2015
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomoy View Post
Lots of really good advice so far, and welcome to KURB, for a "junior member" your comments are clear and insightful. In addition to upper body advice, I see a couple things and am probably stating the obvious:

1) Arch in the back. I think this is somehow exaggerated by the video, the shortening of the aspect ratio and the go-pro's wide angle distortions. It looks like a pretty serious outsway of the butt. Do you ever have lower back pain after a swim? I sense a TI focus shift lately to posture, and straightness of the core alignment. Am working on this a lot myself. So think about that tummy tuck, pull in your butt. You know the position... after a big dinner, long drive, no rest stop in sight, hours since your last pit stop, trying to hold in the log... :-\

2) Kicking from the knee. Terry talks about this in the new book. Think about the size of the lever and the muscles driving it. If you're kicking from the knee, you have about an 18-20" lever and you're using leg muscles to drive it. If you kick from the hip you have a 30-35" lever and have your gluts to drive it. And there's that little parachute you open up everything you pull the heel back. So typical TI, work on the streamlining.

p.s. your balance looks great!
Hiya

Thanks for the compliment! And for commenting.

re 1.
I've never had any back pain after swimming, which is telling as I was diagnosed after X-rays a few years back, to have a lower back spinal problem. I seem to have sorted that out by changing my gait, not something recommended by anyone just something that seemed logical.

Anyway, when I compare the front-view and the side-view what I see is that the curvature seen in the side view is a function of a horizontal bananaing at that point more than a curve vertically downwards.

Suzanne has told me I was misreading videos because of the angles etc and I never accepted her point - until now. The effect is even more p[ronounced with my spearing. Again comparing head-on and side-on views, after entry my hand is curving into the centreline and perhaps a bit past that, but remaining roughly parallel to the surface before then moving down to catch etc.

This kinda annoys me, as I'm an architect so expect to be able to read 3D images, but the difficulty of judging the position of the surface plane combined with the sloping floor apparently makes it tough!

re 2.
Yup, that kick was a REAL eye opener. Dire! And I had no idea I was doing it which is the really weird part. I had thought I was doing something quite different, probably confusing vertical movement for overall movement.

What I am learning from continuing to pore over the pictures, is that I fire my kick almost horizontally. That comes from ignoring something Charles has often said in favour of something ... I think someone said but maybe it was my imagination!

So I intend is to stare long and intently at Laure Manaudou video - for strictly educational purposes you understand!

Tomoy, it'd also be great if you could input to my thread about my wayward elbow. That has me stumped.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #27  
Old 01-26-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danm View Post
- your cadence is very slow. if you want to swim faster (not sure if this is your objective) you need to increase the cadence
@danm and @Talvi: this fact may be true. But, speaking for myself, it wasn't quite so easy as just ramping up my tempo trainer time. As a beginner, I have a vary precarious grasp of balance and streamlining. When I was finally able to get a reasonable balance and streamline integrating all the other elements of stroke mechanics at one tempo, increasing the speed by any significant fraction (decreasing the TT interval) caused a breakdown of that very delicate balance. I had to decrease the TT intervals in tiny tiny steps, and practice for weeks at the new speed before I was able to regain the form and the SPL etc. I was capable of at the old tempo. So ramping up the tempo before fixing the other things may not be the actual help that it may seem to be.
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  #28  
Old 01-26-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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Talvi, do you really want to swim at the effort level shown on the video?
You look like a dense guy thats riding low in the water.
Getting a breath thats not upsetting your stroke is very difficult under these conditions.
I dont know how much you can increase your shoulder flexibility, but looking at the footage, things to work on:

1 - better streamline.
Arms on entry, bodyline, kick.
2 - better core driven rotation. Stop overrotation on a dropped elbow.

This knee kicking is an evil beast that has to vanish to get a good integrated roll around the bodyline.
Still believe that the hard work you feel in your core when kicking with almost striaight legs is the key feeling you want to have in a good core connected kick.
You have to feel you kick the butt up with the whole leg, ending with the bottom leg.
This is very different from an isolated kick from the knee.Kicking on your back with a small amplitude, no knees above waterline could help.
Well, sorry for repeating myself again.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 01-26-2015 at 09:42 PM.
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  #29  
Old 01-27-2015
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jafaremraf View Post
Perhaps I should have said that the angle is subtle and is only there because of the position the shoulder is in and the hand is relaxed. Trying it on dry land produces the same results, leading with the elbow, with me at any rate, turns the palm slightly outwards.
Oh, OK. Without the qualifier, the mental image I was getting was that the hand was entering sideways thumb first and absolutely vertically downwards!
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  #30  
Old 01-27-2015
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Thanks especially Kurb, Suzanne and David Shen for your observations on my video. Nice comments.

Something you guys didn't point to is the transition between my catch and pull.

The issue I see here is apparent in the video at 0:34 and especially at 1:09, but I've isolated a still and attach it here, together with a comparison still at the same point in the cycle from a Shinji video. The difference I see between the two is that my elbow is so much closer to my body (ok, I also look more like a broiler!).

It looks striking and I'd appreciate your comments on it.
Timing of the stroke may be different but one other person also noted, so is rotation of the body. you're already flat here but shinji has yet to rotate in. If you 're really in teh same phases of the stroke cycle, then you're pulling yourself forward, and shinji is letting rotation take him forward (my impression).

you don't need to be as far away from yoru body as Shinji is, some of that is hsi natural, or rehearsed flexibility.

Imagine doing a pull down machine...where will you get more leverage, with your hand/forearm direction below your chest or out to the side a little bit? Where would you place you rhands if you were pushing up out of hte pool?
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