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  #11  
Old 01-26-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I like the idea of a "working" limit . :) it implies room for improvement .
yes that was why i was trying some "time" element to the new bstormed names, which hopefully got to some temporary element, and to be improved (hopefully) and changed over time for the better....

WNL = working neural limit

not too much of a mouthful i hope ;-)

"my WNL is 1.04s tempo"
"your goal should be to keep approaching your WNL of 1.04s tempo with the tempo trainer, then backing off and then reapproaching with the idea of adapting your nervous system to the faster tempo..."
etc.
etc.
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  #12  
Old 01-26-2012
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
My main point in this thread was that your concept of MNF stands on it's own and doesn't need the parallel...but it is a fair comparison and would work to explain your concept to a traditionally minded endurance athlete.
If I publish it elsewhere I'd probably mention that not everyone accepts it as valid or other than anecdotal; as you grasp, I refer to it as one way of expanding the thinking of athletes who are endurance-minded using terms they're familiar with. MNF, rather than MAF, is the main thrust.
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  #13  
Old 01-26-2012
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by dshen View Post
WNL = working neural limit
My instinctive preference, for conveying that--up to a point you mostly guess at until you reach it--you can probably wring more adaptation-to-increased-tempo from your nervous system would be Tempo (or Rate) Threshold.
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  #14  
Old 01-26-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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Default Alphabet Soup - how about KISS - keep it simple...

I think we are getting carried away with acronyms again. In a post in another forum that started all this, I referred to the notion of maximum controlled pace(MCP -another acronym!)- which is what we are essentially discussing, the point at which in any given distance any swimmer is getting their maximum stroke rate and maximum stroke length without breaking down form in order to swim their fastest.

But isn't that good old VELOCITY? V = SPL x SR. Swimming, or any sport at it's most fundamental is beautiful. Great athletes, through hours of mindful practice, take this alphabet soup and make it neural-synthesizing it down to it's most basic elements.

Don't get me wrong, I think about all this stuff a lot. However, I'm going to try to keep it simple and remember to call it velocity and just worry about stroke length and stroke rate.
Cheers,
Ian
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  #15  
Old 01-26-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Originally Posted by ian mac View Post
I think we are getting carried away with acronyms again. In a post in another forum that started all this, I referred to the notion of maximum controlled pace(MCP -another acronym!)- which is what we are essentially discussing, the point at which in any given distance any swimmer is getting their maximum stroke rate and maximum stroke length without breaking down form in order to swim their fastest.

But isn't that good old VELOCITY? V = SPL x SR. Swimming, or any sport at it's most fundamental is beautiful. Great athletes, through hours of mindful practice, take this alphabet soup and make it neural-synthesizing it down to it's most basic elements.

Don't get me wrong, I think about all this stuff a lot. However, I'm going to try to keep it simple and remember to call it velocity and just worry about stroke length and stroke rate.
Cheers,
Ian
you are right that V=SPL+SR. but if we are trying to improve, there is no better way to keep some constant in your training than with a tempo trainer. that is where your SR is important. i wanted to assign a name to where your SR creates an inefficiency in your stroke, ie. SPL goes up, form breaks down, etc.

given our work with the tempo trainer, it has shown to be the best way to exercise your nervous system in/around the point at which your nervous system has not adapted to perfect form yet. so saying i have some sort of limit, WNL, or threshold at some SR is a good thing to remember for the next workout.

it provides more specificity to training with your equation of V=SPLxSR. i do not think it provides more complexity; as a coach, i want to say that you should train in and around this SR because of a nervous system temporary adaptation limit - but instead of that mouthful, i could just say WNL or similar and since its a defined term, we would know what that meant.
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  #16  
Old 01-27-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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Sorry to disagree, I just think we're talking about the same things, just way too much unnecessary jargon. As a coach, you know the importance of simplicity when concentrating on adaptation- whether it be related to the mechanics of length or rate.

What about the term "race pace"? This at least applies to both SR & SPL over a given distance. If you look at my training posts, I am always working on neural adaptation, especially to stroke rate for fast swimming. I am constantly using the TT as a training tool for various SPL & SR sets, as well as swimming very demanding race pace sets WITHOUT the TT in order to test my neural adaptation. Race pace seems to cover all that nicely.

If a coach is talking to a group of swimmers and commands that they swim a set of say 20x50, 10 at their 400 race pace and then 10 at their 100 race pace, chances are, they'll grasp the concept fairly easily. If you tell them instead to swim them at their "working neural limit" (to coin your phrase), I suspect that most will go, "Huh?"

Sometimes, I think we start getting way to wordy. What attracted me to Terry's concepts originally was the simplicity of the idea. I really think that it is important to maintain that simplicity rather than coming up with lots of alphabet soup that seems more concerned with keeping us somehow separate or above the fray.
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  #17  
Old 01-27-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ian mac View Post
Sorry to disagree, I just think we're talking about the same things, just way too much unnecessary jargon. As a coach, you know the importance of simplicity when concentrating on adaptation- whether it be related to the mechanics of length or rate.

What about the term "race pace"? This at least applies to both SR & SPL over a given distance. If you look at my training posts, I am always working on neural adaptation, especially to stroke rate for fast swimming. I am constantly using the TT as a training tool for various SPL & SR sets, as well as swimming very demanding race pace sets WITHOUT the TT in order to test my neural adaptation. Race pace seems to cover all that nicely.

If a coach is talking to a group of swimmers and commands that they swim a set of say 20x50, 10 at their 400 race pace and then 10 at their 100 race pace, chances are, they'll grasp the concept fairly easily. If you tell them instead to swim them at their "working neural limit" (to coin your phrase), I suspect that most will go, "Huh?"

Sometimes, I think we start getting way to wordy. What attracted me to Terry's concepts originally was the simplicity of the idea. I really think that it is important to maintain that simplicity rather than coming up with lots of alphabet soup that seems more concerned with keeping us somehow separate or above the fray.
it's OK to disagree - no need to be sorry ;-)

however, this WNL is only used with the tempo trainer training and is only really valid in using the tempo trainer to drive neural adaptation. since we have so many workouts that use the tempo trainer, i see value in saying that you have a target tempo to work around which is where your neural adaptation for your current fitness and skill level starts to break down.

that target tempo is what i'm trying to put a name to. i'm definitely not adding complexity, here just naming something that all of us talk about but to date I have never heard it being called "something".

if you want to swim and look at SR+SPL or something like SWOLF score, that's fine too. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that.

so as a coach, especially in a 1 on 1 situation where this can really be specific, we can run a tempo trainer test, marching the tempo trainer down the values, until we see the person either:

1) spinning
2) getting noticeably uncomfortable, both in HR and in mental agitation
3) their form getting messy
4) their speed getting slower despite faster moving arm cycles
etc.

this is where i would say to the person, "looks like today, your WNL is 1.22s. when you go home and workout between now and when we meet next, I would recommend doing sets with the tempo trainer that move from lower tempos to your WNL, back off, and then approach it again, and repeat and so on. when you practice, attempt to get more comfortable at your WNL in [1 thru 4] items above".

do you still disagree?
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  #18  
Old 01-27-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshen View Post
it's OK to disagree - no need to be sorry ;-)

however, this WNL is only used with the tempo trainer training and is only really valid in using the tempo trainer to drive neural adaptation. since we have so many workouts that use the tempo trainer, i see value in saying that you have a target tempo to work around which is where your neural adaptation for your current fitness and skill level starts to break down.

that target tempo is what i'm trying to put a name to. i'm definitely not adding complexity, here just naming something that all of us talk about but to date I have never heard it being called "something".

if you want to swim and look at SR+SPL or something like SWOLF score, that's fine too. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that.

so as a coach, especially in a 1 on 1 situation where this can really be specific, we can run a tempo trainer test, marching the tempo trainer down the values, until we see the person either:

1) spinning
2) getting noticeably uncomfortable, both in HR and in mental agitation
3) their form getting messy
4) their speed getting slower despite faster moving arm cycles
etc.

this is where i would say to the person, "looks like today, your WNL is 1.22s. when you go home and workout between now and when we meet next, I would recommend doing sets with the tempo trainer that move from lower tempos to your WNL, back off, and then approach it again, and repeat and so on. when you practice, attempt to get more comfortable at your WNL in [1 thru 4] items above".

do you still disagree?
I have been calling it
"TT threshold" for sometime in the posts. Threshold for me is a better description as it is not absolute.

Stroke rate is like a pot of water on the stove, as you turn the heat up it starts to bubble over, turn the heat up more and you start to lose water over the edge more and more ferociously but it doesn't explode, that's why I see it as a threshold not a limit.

The athlete or coach decides how deep to go into the red zone to maximise development.
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  #19  
Old 01-27-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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I agree with Ian and Andy. For as much as we discuss and plan these tt sets, if there were an easy, obvious or convenient name for it wed all be using it. Why not talk about an "optimal" SR for a given distance and pace combination? An astute student knows where this may be. A students who isn't as in tune with the stroke, won't follow the jargon anyway.

Additionally, we have to consider what's a "perfect" stroke as relates to tempo? Even at a liesurely tempo, I have stroke flaws. When I swim at faster tempos, some.flaws improve while others worsen.

I frequently encourage people to dance with much faster rates than they feel.comfortable with, not as a routine set, but to explore and breakthrough perceived limits. Sometimes the neural block to swimming faster is simply that we dont know what its like to swim faster...not that our stroke isn't pretty.
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  #20  
Old 01-27-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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ian mac
Default Neural development-race pace and beyond

Suzanne,
For all those who like to get technical-
Over 4 practices, I will work on lowering my race pace by doing the following as a main set:
My current race pace for a 400m (4:52) is 1:13/100m
NO TT - as this is a test set, I need to test my ability to set a pace in my mind, and concentrate on SPL of 15 and hope to feel the stroke rate needed without the external aid of the TT.

Main set Day 1: 3 x [4 x 100] @1:45
1 slightly above race pace,2 & 3 at race pace, 4 slightly below race pace KNOW TOTAL STROKES FOR#4
3 min rest between sets and repeat - make sure that on all 3 final swims that a coach or friend times 6 strokes in the middle of each 100 to determine stroke rate as this will be my new race pace target

Armed with the data of my 3 faster than race pace swims, I now know what the SPL and SR were by calculating 2 things
SPL = total strokes for all 3 swims of #4 /12
SR = 3/time to complete 6 strokes x 60

Main Set Day 2: 3 x [8 x 50] @1min hold race pace SPL for all 3 sets with TT at 3 tempos: 1. race pace + .08, 2. race pace +.04 3. @race pace
approximately 3 min rest between sets

Main Set Day 3: with TT set @ race pace, 12 x 50 broken 5sec. rest @1:15
- on each swim try to take 1 less stroke on second 50

Main Set Day 4: as many 100's as possible @ 1:15 until failure - TT optional

In all sets, we are ALWAYS counting strokes to try to find where we can find easy speed and hope to lose 1-3 strokes per 100. In the final 3 days we are "playing around" with TT tempos and SPL to become comfortable with the new race pace, learning what works well empirically and also with feel.

Over the next 3 weeks I would focus on a variety of sets of varying distances with the primary focus of trying to drop 1 stroke/50m of the new race pace.
Ian
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