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  #1  
Old 01-12-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Default Heart rate training within the middle of a zone

I think I understand about the various zones used in heart rate training, recovery, aerobic, and anaerobic.

for the sake of simplicity I calculate that my recovery zone is 120-140bpm and my aerobic zone 140-170bpm.

what I do not know is will I notice much difference in a 20 minute workout at 150bpm compared to 160bpm? since they are both in the middle of my aerobic zone?

any knowledge or thoughts?
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  #2  
Old 01-13-2012
The Parrot The Parrot is offline
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Default Pulse rates

Don't think that you will notice any significant difference at those two rates, Andy, unless you are extremely experienced in assessing and monitoring your own experience of work rate/pulse rate. The rate that is important for us is the anaerobic threshold and there 10 beats will be very significant. As work rate increases in aerobic exercise, pulse rate is pretty much a linear increase too. When the anaerobic threshold is approached, pulse rate goes up significantly ie in a step and no longer linear. Breathing becomes harder in the same way, with the same sharp increase - and we are on borrowed time!

Training regularly at rates that are close to the threshold can raise the level at which we go aerobic and enable a more sustained higher rate but not by much. An imbalance - too high a proportion of anaerobic work is not building up, it is breaking down. Result loss of interest and possibly injury.

Martin T.
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  #3  
Old 01-13-2012
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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Default Anaerobic Threshold

It has been some time since I have even attempted to go anaerobic. Many years ago when training was more intense, I could tell immediately when my body hit it. No HR monitor or other gadgets my body told me.

To the aerobic side and recovery, it is my view that too many endurance athletes train at too high of a heart rate, then don't allow for proper recovery.

Just an opinion.

FYI for those interested Swim Smooth has just posted a video of and individual with the headline, paraphrase, "Could this be the smoothest freestyle in swimming." They reference this individuals stroke as a template for Mr. Smooth.


Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
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  #4  
Old 01-14-2012
isaac.ohel isaac.ohel is offline
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I agree with a previous post. During a long aerobic exercise my heart rate creeps up without any perceived increase in effort or fatigue.

Do you measure heart rate while swimming?
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  #5  
Old 01-14-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaac.ohel View Post
I agree with a previous post. During a long aerobic exercise my heart rate creeps up without any perceived increase in effort or fatigue.

Do you measure heart rate while swimming?
yes I have the Finis aquapulse so am experimenting with heart rate training for swimming for the first time.

I wish to keep my heart rate above 140 to maximise my speed but below 170 to not go anaerobic.

I can swim more than a mile at 1.50 splits with a heart rate below or around 140 but cannot maintain 1.45 splits for long without my heart rate hitting the high 160's

I am a bit ignorant here as to the training required, other than to edge my stroke rate up in increments and see what effect it has on my HR?
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  #6  
Old 01-16-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
yes I have the Finis aquapulse so am experimenting with heart rate training for swimming for the first time.

I wish to keep my heart rate above 140 to maximise my speed but below 170 to not go anaerobic.

I can swim more than a mile at 1.50 splits with a heart rate below or around 140 but cannot maintain 1.45 splits for long without my heart rate hitting the high 160's

I am a bit ignorant here as to the training required, other than to edge my stroke rate up in increments and see what effect it has on my HR?
I just got an aquapulse too and have been playing with it. I saw Coach Shinji on Saturday and we chatted a bit about what he is doing with it also.

I think the significant use for the HR monitor is to try to minimize HR for a given length and tempo. so if you set your TT to a value, swim a set distance, and listen to the HR announcements of the aquapulse, you should try to relax and lower your HR the next interval for the same distance and tempo.

Over time and longer distances, you will find that there is HR drift. this is the major problem with HR training as your HR has a tendency to drift higher and higher, sometimes confusing the zones you've calculated. I have found that HR zones are maintained for workouts of about 1 hour. Over 1 hour, the HR can start to move higher for the same effort. so this is a problem with HR training that you should be aware of.

Most of us have moved to perceived exertion/effort based training for this fact. We memorize how we feel for a given level of effort, ie. breathing pattern, tiredness in muscles, etc. and we get to know ourselves for easy pace, tempo pace, and sprint pace.

Also, as you train at higher effort, and consequently HRs, you will find that you are able to maintain and tolerate higher HRs as your fitness grows. This is good - in races you want to be able to maintain high effort for as long as possible and be able to sprint and then pull back to tempo pace during a race many times as you try to pass people, maintain or regain the lead, etc.

As you train, you should vary it up from aerobic sets at the HR ranges you describe, but you should also do some intervals where your HR rises much higher and over time you want to lengthen the distance of these intervals, as you lower the rest period.

For swimming, the goal is to always find that place where your technique does not deteriorate. it is not good to sprint but have your form die; this is just wasting energy and it is not moving you faster in the water.

so looking at your statements:

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I wish to keep my heart rate above 140 to maximise my speed but below 170 to not go anaerobic.
thus, because of HR drift, you may find that your HR is going above your goal but yet your effort doesn't seem to increase, BUT you may feel anxious to back off which would be doing yourself a disservice in the race because you actually had more to give but you were following your HR goals instead, which were inaccurate due to the HR drift.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
I can swim more than a mile at 1.50 splits with a heart rate below or around 140 but cannot maintain 1.45 splits for long without my heart rate hitting the high 160's
one really great goal is to see if you can lower your HR below 140 for the same speed (1.50) and distance (1 mile). this means you are relaxing more and conserving energy, increasing efficiency and will result in you having more in the tank to sprint to the finish.

as for the 1.45 splits at 160 bpm, how do you feel when you swim this? does the effort leave you winded so badly that you can't swim any more or can you do many intervals at this pace? if you are winded, then this is definitely a limit and you would build from here. if not, then you should be able to train here and not worry about needing to maintain some range. in fact, you are raising your fitness by giving your body more stimulus which is a good thing. over time, you will adapt to a higher effort, which if you maintain efficiency, will mean you will have a faster race without feeling wiped out at the end.

to add to your workouts, you'd probably want to add some intervals at even higher than 160 HR. stimulating the body across all ranges of efforts is a good thing and results in more fitness overall.
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  #7  
Old 01-16-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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To those of you who own the Aquapulse: Do you find there is significant added value compared to just manually taking a carotid pulse for 10 seconds & multiplying by 6? If there is added value, does it approach the cost of the device ($150)?
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  #8  
Old 01-16-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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dshen, many thanks for detailed advice.

I agree that the HR monitor has value in learning to swim at the same speeds with less effort and is a great way to use the tool.

For me personally, its teaching me to relax more in the water. By following my heart rate and adjusting my effort accordingly I went much faster yesterday than ever before. Guess accurate perceived effort is something you learn overtime and maybe a HR monitor can help short cut that learning curve.

Swim2bFree. As for the investment of $150, I guess it depends what you value it against. Not sure how much coaching costs in the US but if its $75 a hour I would simply ask myself if the aquapulse can do more for me than 2 hours of private tuition.

Probably depends on your swimming level and general fitness level. The HR has paid off for me but might not benefit you in the same way.
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  #9  
Old 01-16-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
For me personally, its teaching me to relax more in the water. By following my heart rate and adjusting my effort accordingly I went much faster yesterday than ever before. Guess accurate perceived effort is something you learn overtime and maybe a HR monitor can help short cut that learning curve.
that's what i like to hear! faster swimming at less effort - perfect. now when you need to put more effort, you have extra "heartbeats" left in the tank!
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  #10  
Old 01-16-2012
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
To those of you who own the Aquapulse: Do you find there is significant added value compared to just manually taking a carotid pulse for 10 seconds & multiplying by 6? If there is added value, does it approach the cost of the device ($150)?
i bought one because i'm interested in data driven training. i believe we are on the cusp of being able to collect enough data about ourselves while training and be able to deliver good direction on our current and next workout, based on the results of the previous workouts. HR monitoring is just one part of that.

but there are problems, like the fact that this device cannot record my HR over the course of a workout, nor associate it with my Swimsense's lap and stroke data. i am sure these problems will get solved in the next few years but for now we have to do things manually. in the meantime, i can record the data and look at it which gives me insight into how data driven training programs and algorithms might look like.

in the micro sense, going lap for lap and using it as feedback to relax on subsequent laps at the same tempo and distance is very valuable. perhaps one could argue that you could have enough sensitivity in your body condition to do that without a HR monitor - that would be related to my comment about getting attuned to perceived exertion and what it feels like when you're swimming easy, medium, tempo, hard, etc.
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