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  #41  
Old 10-13-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Thanks for those links, Charles. I should be able to work out some sort of test swim based on the SDI idea.

Obviously improving the 50m time would be valuable, but not exactly easy to do when the normal process is to get slower. However, even people in their eighties swim faster than I do so it must be possible.

I suppose that speeding up the middle (say the 200m and 400m) would have effects on both the sprint and endurance ends.
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  #42  
Old 10-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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OOooppps I really didn't suggest these things should be tried from here. (what have I done lol).

Besides, it's been 6 years, I haven't used the 50m in any protocol ever since. Mind you, there was some work in that, and the standards ranges were not entirely arbitrary

It features the sweet uncertainty concept too, when coupled with the challenge that follows 5x300m (with a target time based on your result over 50).
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  #43  
Old 10-14-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
OOooppps I really didn't suggest these things should be tried from here. (what have I done lol).

Besides, it's been 6 years, I haven't used the 50m in any protocol ever since. Mind you, there was some work in that, and the standards ranges were not entirely arbitrary

It features the sweet uncertainty concept too, when coupled with the challenge that follows 5x300m (with a target time based on your result over 50).
I'm going to give this a shot while in London this week! (the 5 x 300 challenge)...seeing as I havn't swum a total of 1500 in the previous 4 weeks, should be great fun, lol.
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  #44  
Old 10-14-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I'm going to give this a shot while in London this week! (the 5 x 300 challenge)...seeing as I havn't swum a total of 1500 in the previous 4 weeks, should be great fun, lol.
Have a great time in Windsor, wish I was there, not sure how well it was communicated outside the TI uk site before it was sold out but there's always next time.

The ice cream shop on the corner by the castle is nearly as good as kilwin's in Celebration and Wagamama serve the nicest food out of all the non independent restaurants. No doubt your UK host has excellent plans.
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  #45  
Old 10-14-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I'm going to give this a shot while in London this week! (the 5 x 300 challenge)...seeing as I havn't swum a total of 1500 in the previous 4 weeks, should be great fun, lol.
AAAaaahhhh ok. But test the 50 first. That's the key. Then find your bracket and go for Gold!
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  #46  
Old 10-14-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Charles, the spreadsheet you showed for the 50 does not have a 75-79 category. The fastest guys in my age group are still capable of times in the thirties but my fastest so far is 57.41 long course. Usually I am around the minute mark so I put one minute in as my time in the SDI predictor. It predicted 4:40 as my 200m time which is close to my best time of 4:44 or so long course. This year I have a 4:45.46 short course but also a time over five minutes. I imagine that work on the 200 and 400 would pay dividends with some work on the 50 as well. I have been reading the discussion about Brent Rushall's Ultra Short Interval Training, which I find appealing and have started to apply a version of it, namely fast for 12.5 meters and then easy for the rest of the length. I have to fit my training in with a bunch of younger, faster swimmers, some of whom are keen triathletes and fond of sets like 10x100m, and the rest are the fitness swimmers who just get in and grind out the 120 lengths. It's tricky not getting in their way. (;-)
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  #47  
Old 10-14-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
OOooppps I really didn't suggest these things should be tried from here. (what have I done lol).

Charles, I'm seeing the perfect blend developing here between whave we've been doing for awhile...determining what you CAN do currently
(eg. 1000 y/m TT with tempo trainer setting at X.XX, keeping SPL within a narrow bracket)....go do the test, see what you get, then set about creating practice sets for improvement and retest.

This is a nice approach as it's based on your current performance at that distance. One of the things that personally dissuades me from time to time is that it requires mutliple interations of the TT at different SPLs or different TT settings...and during times when my pool time is limited, I tend to just want to go work on my stroke or off stroke (fly!).

So this approach is still very much alive...but reintroducing the idea of decay in swimming...a tested decay and also now understanding the tools to determine my own decay (got that excel log function working), I can also envsion many, many ways to integrate our favorite TI sets & practices with some predictive things to give a really good estimate of what target times (and derivative SPL/Tempo) are for distnaces taht are multiples of what you've tested, rather than distances that are intervals of what you've tested.

(eg. basing some 500s off of 100 TTs, rather than basing yoru 100 interval pace off of a 500 TT).

Fining weaknesses by looking for 'inconsistencies' as you say, and knowing exactly what distance to target...how much fatigue needs to be built up in order for the swimmer to start pushing limits either with fitness OR with the neuromuscular thresholds.
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  #48  
Old 10-15-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
(eg. basing some 500s off of 100 TTs, rather than basing yoru 100 interval pace off of a 500 TT).
.
This has to be the biggest benefits. It makes monitoring the improvement less painful and also easier to achieve logically. It is not always easy to TT over longer distances, especially in public lanes.

Same principle than using 80% FTP as an optimistic performance target over an Ironman bike leg. Follow your FTP (60min), it helps knowing how much (potential, or theoretical) progress you're making over 180.

But yeah, play with the distances a bit. A 50 was choosen back then because on this particular site, everyone was fighting against each other, using theories as tools and quite frankly, the beginner/intermediate swimmer all of a sudden was completely lost on a battlefield, stuck between few schools of thoughts making war.

So I went let's forget about theory, perform a simple flat out 50m, and see if we can all have fun regarless of which camp you belong.

The 100m is already much better as it factors in your efficiency a bit more. Fast twitch can be remarkably fast over 50m trashing like crazy. Then tend to die before even reaching the 75m mark though.
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  #49  
Old 10-15-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

Same principle than using 80% FTP as an optimistic performance target over an Ironman bike leg. Follow your FTP (60min), it helps knowing how much (potential, or theoretical) progress you're making over 180.
Brilliant.
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  #50  
Old 10-15-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Charles,

I just caught up on this thread a bit and saw your link for the 5*300 challenge, seems to most important thing is the accuracy you can get in measuring the 50 since each second has a big impact on the race pace for the 300's

e.g. 50 in 40 seconds gives race pace of 5.26, 50 in 38 seconds gives race pace of 5.10

So to get the right challenge for the 300's its better to time the 50 with a TT and stroke count than with finishing the length and trying to find the wall clock?
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