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  #21  
Old 10-12-2012
The Parrot The Parrot is offline
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Quote 'In 1993 when I began tri-coaching, I had to make a choice. I knew back then that contrary to what most coaches would do, ie establishing training zones based on Vo2Max Values (where every zone would be relative to this measurement), I rather choose to base everything on threshold instead.'

Charles, You were kind not to bomb me out, thank you!
I entirely agree with you. Perhaps like some others, I don't think I have a fast twitch fibre in my body and I don't have an outstanding VO2 max - and not a lot of natural talent, but I found that because I could work to a high percentage of what VO2 max I had, I could perform respectably in international marathons and ultra-distance events, often with negative splits. I came to the conclusion that for me knowing and working with the anaerobic threshold was by far the most effective single training and racing guide. Except for the finishing miles,if you went anaerobic for long in, say, a London to Brighton race (54 miles), it was a long way to walk home or to the finish if you blew it! Obviously this is irrelevant to sprinters, running or swimming, but I can't help thinking it is equally relevant to 10km and other long distance open water swimmers.

Martin T.
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Ooops really? What's your SDI like?
Charles, thank you so much for that 2nd link!!!! I am going to use that for a lot of things!!!!

I chose 3 times.

100 yd best 1:24
500 yd best 8:00
1500 best (based on a 1 mile OW race) 32:00

With the 100/500 times, my SDI was 1.08
With the 100/1500 times, my SDI was 1.15

I can say that once I hit the 500 yd time of 8:00, I became distracted with teaching and many other things and stopped specifically training distance. The 32:00 OW race was 2-3 months later with little additional training.

I always feel when my 100s are nearing the 1:24 range that I could be gettting much faster with simply adding more time (but same types of training). AT the time of the 500yd PB, a "long" workout was 3000 yds and avg 3 x weekly...

So clearly I have a lot of upside potential!!

Pretending I could get my 100 yd to 1:18 (I think feasable), and I trained the distance, my potential OW mile time could be...22 minutes!

I realize that I am doing a little mixing of yd/m times, but I could rewrite the calcuator to select either yd or m.

Thanks so much!!!
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi Charles

Your old boss, Jean-Marie De Koninck, sounds like a very interesting character, to judge from the Wikipedia article on him. I may have missed something, but what does SDI stand for? The calculator seems very accurate and predicts my slow times very well.
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  #24  
Old 10-12-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Wow glad to see that you could naturally find your way through using the best training model for you.

It makes so much sense that it later became a universally accepted method of cycling training.

Dr. Andrew Coggan, phd proposed that we should all forget about lactate threshold concept, and aim for an easier way of doing which is relying on functional threshold, being defined as your best possible effort over 60min, measured using a power meter. That duration, given you aim for the highest possible average (mean) power output, was found to yield blood lactate accumulation that correlated pretty well with lactate threshold (in fact more OBLA but that doesn't matter much).

Then Dr. Phil Skiba, md ported this concept to both swim and run. Anyone that quantifies his swimming using either Training Peaks or Race Day therefore uses threshold based system. Obviously, that could not work optimally for sprinters, who don't really care anyway to quantify volume performed near threshold.
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  #25  
Old 10-12-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Wow glad to see that you could naturally find your way through using the best training model for you.

It makes so much sense that it later became a universally accepted method of cycling training.

Dr. Andrew Coggan, phd proposed that we should all forget about lactate threshold concept, and aim for an easier way of doing which is relying on functional threshold, being defined as your best possible effort over 60min, measured using a power meter. That duration, given you aim for the highest possible average (mean) power output, was found to yield blood lactate accumulation that correlated pretty well with lactate threshold (in fact more OBLA but that doesn't matter much).

Then Dr. Phil Skiba, md ported this concept to both swim and run. Anyone that quantifies his swimming using either Training Peaks or Race Day therefore uses threshold based system. Obviously, that could not work optimally for sprinters, who don't really care anyway to quantify volume performed near threshold.
I'm very familiar with Phil, having spent a weekend with him learning his style of periodization for triathlon training.

Coggan's model for analyzing and tracking workload is clearly far and away the most well thought out model. I have yet to use the same model (tracking TSS) for swimming however, because for the most part, all the swimmers I work with will benefit from a lot of swimming well below threshold where they get the biggest bang for their buck. It becomes more a matter of how much time they can spend in the pool, based on their work & home schedule than trying to track the physiologic workload of their swimming ... the CTL for swimming it's always going so low as to matter far less than the substance of each swim.

I realize that's not true for everyone.

IN addition, the metrics that trianing peaks pulls from the swim sense & garmin for display and analysis shows a complete lack of understanding about what swim stress really is. I wrote a long email to training peaks in response to their introduction of the 'watch' metrics and they were kind of clueles...they just want to plug numbers in. Calculating the "correct" TSS for a swim workout manually is just too tedious to make it not worthwhile for me.

I prefer to track more granular data and mix and match...days per week of swimming, length of repeats, number of repeats, etc,e tc, etc....so much more variation is possible in swimming than in runnign or cycling workouts that I find the use of the TSS/CTL for swimming to be fairly non-imformative.
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  #26  
Old 10-12-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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OH, Charles you had a previous question/comment about wondering how I would do with an all out highest tempo possible 6bk...

First, I do not regularly train a 6BK so I get tired very qucikly with it! When I do a 6 BK, I find that it governs my turnover rate...I cannot turnover as quickly with a 6BK than if I just kick as fast as possible...but that disengages the front & rear halves of my body, and is usually no faster. My fastest 25s & 50s have been with a 2BK.

I'm sure I could train to go faster with a different swimming style, and an occasion I'll play with it to burn more calories, provide variety in the pool, or work on my shapely figure, but not enough to actually make me any faster.

;)
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Pittsburgh, PA

Total Immersion Swim Coaching, Triathlon and Bicycle Training in Pittsburgh, PA

My TI Coach Blog
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  #27  
Old 10-12-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Hi Charles

Your old boss, Jean-Marie De Koninck, sounds like a very interesting character, to judge from the Wikipedia article on him. I may have missed something, but what does SDI stand for? The calculator seems very accurate and predicts my slow times very well.
Sad you don't read the French version.

I think he wouldn't mind that I reveal a few details found on the French entry:

If you ever heard of Antoine de St-Exupery, he wrote a famous book, Le Petit Prince. JMDK is person that inspired Antoine to write this best seller.

JMDK comes from a very large family. All his bros and sist are PhD (minimum). Most are very high profile researchers and professors. None failed at finishing a PhD in something. We're talking about 8 bros ans syst here (to the best of my knowledge).

Note that JMDK is also well known for having designed one of the most powerful and successful fund raiser for a sports team.

In the 80s, whilst being the head coach of a successful swim team, varsity level. That team would belong to a wide program of excellence, hosting several teams. Whilst some teams would sell chocolate, others would do car wash, JMDK taught it could be a good idea to offer drunk people a free service that allow them to get back home safely. During Christmas holidays, if you call Red-Nose operation, from a Bar let's say, then a Car is sent with 2 drivers. One of the driver is then using the Drunk person's car. So that drunk person is basically being given a ride in his own car. So no worry, when you get back home, your car will be there with you.

That fund raiser allows this team to raise 400 000$ every year (at least). It's so popular that it did spread province wide, then to some extent country wide, then the concept crossed the ocean and is also used in a few European countries. Here in Quebec, JMDK is the highest profile figure associated with road safety. He's the one that managed the implementation of photo-radars. Etc etc etc.

In 86, he wrote a full swimming app. Unbelievable that is. By a single clic, it creates a yearly periodized plan that takes into account your SDI. So all intervals etc are perfectly tailored to you. And he's kind enough to wait for me to help giving this app a second life (when I have time)...

All that, on top of his main job which remains teaching. He's a full time professor, teaching stats. He's also a researcher in this field. He did find theories etc, especially in the field of prime numbers I believe. He's been known for requiring only 3-5 hours of sleep per day, when he's not sleeping, he's working. Every party I saw him organizing, he was there as a host, but was working, not partying. Should you invite him for a video/pizza party? He shows up, but with a laptop computer to work, etc etc...

So yes, very singular character he is :) One of the 2 genius I have been fortunate enough to meet in my life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Nose

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-12-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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  #28  
Old 10-12-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Sad you don't read the French version.

I think he wouldn't mind that I reveal a few details found on the French entry:

If you ever heard of Antoine de St-Exupery, he wrote a famous book, Le Petit Prince. JMDK is person that inspired Antoine to write this best seller.

JMDK comes from a very large family. All his bros and sist are PhD (minimum). Most are very high profile researchers and professors. None failed at finishing a PhD in something. We're talking about 8 bros ans syst here (to the best of my knowledge).

Note that JMDK is also well known for having designed one of the most powerful and successful fund raiser for a sports team.

In the 80s, whilst being the head coach of a successful swim team, varsity level. That team would belong to a wide program of excellence, hosting several teams. Whilst some teams would sell chocolate, others would do car wash, JMDK taught it could be a good idea to offer drunk people a free service that allow them to get back home safely. During Christmas holidays, if you call Red-Nose operation, from a Bar let's say, then a Car is sent with 2 drivers. One of the driver is then using the Drunk person's car. So that drunk person is basically being given a ride in his own car. So no worry, when you get back home, your car will be there with you.

That fund raiser allows this team to raise 400 000$ every year (at least). It's so popular that it did spread province wide, then to some extent country wide, then the concept crossed the ocean and is also used in a few European countries. Here in Quebec, JMDK is the highest profile figure associated with road safety. He's the one that managed the implementation of photo-radars. Etc etc etc.

In 86, he wrote a full swimming app. Unbelievable that is. By a single clic, it creates a yearly periodized plan that takes into account your SDI. So all intervals etc are perfectly tailored to you. And he's kind enough to wait for me to help giving this app a second life (when I have time)...

All that, on top of his main job which remains teaching. He's a full time professor, teaching stats. He's also a researcher in this field. He did find theories etc, especially in the field of prime numbers I believe. He's been known for requiring only 3-5 hours of sleep per day, when he's not sleeping, he's working. Every party I saw him organizing, he was there as a host, but was working, not partying. Should you invite him for a video/pizza party? He shows up, but with a laptop computer to work, etc etc...

So yes, very singular character he is :) One of the 2 genius I have been fortunate enough to meet in my life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Red_Nose
I want to meet him! AND meet this swimming app he has written. It has been generating all sorts of ideas in my own head, after visiting the simple SDI app, and hearing of the research that preceded Daniels, it's clear that we always stand on the shoulders of giants!
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Pittsburgh, PA

Total Immersion Swim Coaching, Triathlon and Bicycle Training in Pittsburgh, PA

My TI Coach Blog
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  #29  
Old 10-12-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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You see, Charles...

AS a triathlon coach, I help people get faster at all 3 disciplines. but for swimming, most of the work I do is in teaching technique.

For running, I've foudn great success using the MacMillan tables, which I suspect simply use a fatigue index, rather than being based on his own collected data (which distinguishes Daniels), but the concepts are similar...the MacMillan tables are easier to access.

I have been able to caoch every single one of my triathletes to running PRs by making use of itnerval training based on
-a tested race or TT pace such as 1mile, 5k, 10k, HM, or Mary
-a projected pace for the target distance based on the fatigue index
-a well planned block of trianing impleneting progression of the 2 things above
-retesting


My fastest runner has set 6 PRs this year in every distance he's raced including,
5k, Olympic Tri, 10k, half marathon, marathon and half-ironman


This thread excites me so much to discover some of the original thought leaders of the same type of methods I've been using for the past few years (introduced to me by folks like Coggan (book & e-communication), Bobby McGee (in person discussions & mentornig) , Phil Skiba(in person mentoring) and Jack Daniels (book only).

I am excited to find the confidence to take these ideas now fully to swimming and "TI-ify" them as I had commented before, but based on things like the fatigue index and combining them with the success I've already used for run training!!!!


!!!!!
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Pittsburgh, PA

Total Immersion Swim Coaching, Triathlon and Bicycle Training in Pittsburgh, PA

My TI Coach Blog
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  #30  
Old 10-12-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Hi Charles

I've now read the French Wikipedia article and visited de Koninck's web site but I still don't know what SDI stands for. It's probably something obvious such as Swimming Decay Index (a guess) but where can I find a description of it?

Richard
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