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  #11  
Old 10-10-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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And the other major issue is: how can one establish what his threshold (or anaerobic threshold, or maxlass, or whatever the name given to this threshold) is?

This is what the CSS model, especially the simplified version addresses.

One could always use the SDI concept, for instance considering the 1.9k as your threshold pace. But I'd expect the 1.9k pace to be very close to the CSS pace.

But one way or another, it's good to have a quick way to calculate your threshold pace. Forget about HR, especially over a 10min bout only.

**edit**
I can confirm that the CSS model is a match within 1sec per 100m with the prediction over 800m as issued by the SDI concept. So this is a bloody fast pace, one that roughly correlates with a 10min long effort, dear Andy.

The implications here, is that one could use the SDI concept with any possible distance (e.g. 50/100, or whatever really). The prediction for the 800m should be within a second of being the CSS pace.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-10-2012 at 10:12 PM.
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  #12  
Old 10-10-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Then the only question left...is my individual fatigue my ideal fatigue decay???
If it's close to 1.06, then it is. If it's under it (given your excellent technique) then it could mean that you lack a bit of pure speed. If it's over that, then you may lack a bit of long distance adaptation.

So using the original calculation, my friend Arhy did put the 2 together in perspective and even give you the delta between what you can expect given your SDI, and what you should expect if you brought it back to 1.06. So say your SDI is 1.10 (like mine), it means that these delta will always be negative.

As an example. Given 2:15 / 4:50 for 200/400. This gives me 1.10. The prediction for 1500 is 20:46. The prediction given the ideal decay (1.06) is 19:03. Therefore the delta is -1.44

So I should expect, given that I train really well, my 1500 to go down to 19:03.

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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Lots of new reading and ideas for me...
Yeah but wait for the article. It should be a fascinating one as both persons that originate this concept will be included. It was a special process to trade emails with both of these giants, to try and sort out who invented what before the other etc.... And our conclusion, funny enough, is that they both invented the same formula (the prediction one). Whilst looking for a fit, they came up with the same fit.

- - -

It never occured to me that the simplified version of the CSS concept was in fact about finding pace corresponding to your best 800m. If it's really the case, then I personnally prefer using the SDI, and use the pace over 1500 instead (as the 800m is extremely violent threshold pace). In the case described above, CSS gives me 1:18 (which is very very fast given that the SDI gives me an estimate of 20:45 for 1500). I prefer 1:23 (pace over 1500). But others have used the CSS pace with a lot of success so it's certainly very good too.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-10-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-10-2012
The Parrot The Parrot is offline
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I really hesitate to add even 2 cents worth to the discussion between such erudite and experienced coaches - and Andy and co.!
Charles, to define our anaerobic threshold in the running world we used to increase our pace at a steady linear rate. Our pulse rate on the heart rate monitor would follow - also in a linear fashion but at the anaerobic threshold it would suddenly increase significantly (and the runner would suddenly begin to breathe much more heavily). For serious marathon running we would spend quite a lot of our quality training time working say 5 beats before and below this jump in pulse.
I feel sure you will know a way to transfer this procedure to swimmers in the pool and if you do, please let me know! \*_*
Martin T.
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  #14  
Old 10-10-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Parrot View Post
I really hesitate to add even 2 cents worth to the discussion between such erudite and experienced coaches - and Andy and co.!
Charles, to define our anaerobic threshold in the running world we used to increase our pace at a steady linear rate. Our pulse rate on the heart rate monitor would follow - also in a linear fashion but at the anaerobic threshold it would suddenly increase significantly (and the runner would suddenly begin to breathe much more heavily). For serious marathon running we would spend quite a lot of our quality training time working say 5 beats before and below this jump in pulse.
I feel sure you will know a way to transfer this procedure to swimmers in the pool and if you do, please let me know! \*_*
Martin T.
Same way...swimming repeats at increasingly faster paces, measure HR (or lactate) and plot on a graph.

The only true way to determine your lactate threshold is to perform multiple lactate steady state tests...swim/run/bike at the same pace/power for an extended period of time and measure lactate. True lactate steady state your lactate will not rise at the end of the iso-power/iso-pace interval.

Repeats of increasing in tensity, time trial tests, incremental step tests and multi-time trial calculations using critical power models are all estimates of threshold and in every single one of them will cross the threshold at some point...and the only way you find it is that you've crossed it...it was 'back there'. the lactate steady state tests are time consuming and take muliple days to perform.

Charles, I don't think it's physiologically possible for everyone's decay to match the ideal decay...everyone has different muscle fiber makeups. But given 2 race distances close together and trying to predict a 3rd...you might find a decay CURVE in which case you are likely under-trained for the distance with the highest decay!
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  #15  
Old 10-11-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Parrot View Post
I really hesitate to add even 2 cents worth to the discussion between such erudite and experienced coaches
Pllllllease do not (hesitate). You'd be amazed at how I love reading swimmers' take. Especially when comes to video analysis by the way. Not sure if Coach Sue shares this feeling. But you swimmers often don't have preformatted thoughts. Therefore you tend to apply action/reaction principles (better than several coaches)

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Parrot View Post
Charles, to define our anaerobic threshold in the running world we used to increase our pace at a steady linear rate. Our pulse rate on the heart rate monitor would follow - also in a linear fashion but at the anaerobic threshold it would suddenly increase significantly (and the runner would suddenly begin to breathe much more heavily). For serious marathon running we would spend quite a lot of our quality training time working say 5 beats before and below this jump in pulse.
I feel sure you will know a way to transfer this procedure to swimmers in the pool and if you do, please let me know! \*_*
Martin T.
In 1993 when I began tri-coaching, I had to make a choice. I knew back then that contrary to what most coaches would do, ie establishing training zones based on Vo2Max Values (where every zone would be relative to this measurement), I rather choose to base everything on threshold instead. My inspiration to do so back then, very clearly, was Professor Ernest W. Maglischo. He had just published Swimmer Even Faster (his second edition), and the evidence pointing to Threshold as being far superior to vo2max as main measurement was compelling.

Bike, I used the HR method. Run, I used the HR method (so simple).

Swim? Well, the perspective of asking my folks to swim with a HR monitor did not smile at me, to say the least. We did some testing, even found ways to modify a polar belt so that it stays... but me athletes did not enjoy wearing it.

Parallel to this, Prof.Maglischo was describing a few reliable protocols to establish threshold based on speed, instead of HR, and so I went with this option. I was probably using the T1500, which was obviously an hybrid between the T1000 (which I thought was too short) and the T3000 (which was unrealistic I found). So there, Maglischo did a lot of test (blood lactate tests). Therefore the choice of going for a TXXXX test was equivalent to recycle Maglischo's effort. IOW, if he did test it, why bother questioning or testing it myself.

So it is really for practical down to the ground reasons I went with this option. Taking your HR after the fact by counting the number of beats over 10sec just does not work. With ultrafit athletes (two members of our teams made it to the Olympics in 2000, so they were fit), HR drops so fast just within 10sec that the reading is not reliable.

Since there are no hills, no wind in a pool, speed is a very reliable and consistent indicator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Charles, I don't think it's physiologically possible for everyone's decay to match the ideal decay...everyone has different muscle fiber makeups.
I definitely agree here. And as you go up toward the top of the food chain, what you mentioned really becomes a fact of life. Not sure that Dara Tores could achieve 1.06 being 70% fast twitched.

But it can work for a lot of Joes though, since the FT/ST proportion for most people remains 50/50. Training aerobically will tend to let your Fast Twitch Type IIa fibers to behave like slow twitch fibers. And training anaerobically will do the opposite (IIa will behave more like Type IIB).

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-11-2012 at 01:05 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-11-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post

But it can work for a lot of Joes though, since the FT/ST proportion for most people remains 50/50. Training aerobically will tend to let your Fast Twitch Type IIa fibers to behave like slow twitch fibers. And training anaerobically will do the opposite (IIa will behave more like Type IIB).
Fair enough!!! I think I am not an ordinary joe...more FT than St, but I'm living in a ST world... :( And never was terribly fast!
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  #17  
Old 10-11-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Fair enough!!! I think I am not an ordinary joe...more FT than St, but I'm living in a ST world... :( And never was terribly fast!
Ooops really? What's your SDI like?
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  #18  
Old 10-11-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Ooops really? What's your SDI like?
I will have to go look at some of my previous bests (I have swum for the first time in 4 weeks just last night), and have not trained for any TT since last summer...just teaching lessons and working on flexibility and the other 3 strokes (fly!).

But...i have always been strong, quick and powerful...excelled at sports like soccer, but not track. Tennis but not cross country. Ultimate Frisbee but not 10ks... FT sports...

Have been a weight lifter since I was about 8 or 10 years old! (introduced by my brother the wrestler...)
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Total Immersion Swim Coaching, Triathlon and Bicycle Training in Pittsburgh, PA

My TI Coach Blog
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  #19  
Old 10-11-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
But...i have always been strong, quick and powerful...excelled at sports like soccer, but not track. Tennis but not cross country. Ultimate Frisbee but not 10ks... FT sports...
Outch.

I have a question Coach Suzanne. Say you go all out for a 100m. Flat out that is. What would your stroke be like?

Jetboat 6b flutter kick with a SR that is as fast as possible? In which case is it still TI Stroke?

I'm curious to see how you handle ultra fast swimming over short distance using a stroke which is mainly built on a 2bk.
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  #20  
Old 10-12-2012
Grant Grant is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Outch.

I have a question Coach Suzanne. Say you go all out for a 100m. Flat out that is. What would your stroke be like?

Jetboat 6b flutter kick with a SR that is as fast as possible? In which case is it still TI Stroke?

I'm curious to see how you handle ultra fast swimming over short distance using a stroke which is mainly built on a 2bk.
Looking forward to Suzanne's reply. In the meantime I have been looking for a really old post about Terry's most highly ranked college swimmer - Joe Novak.
Not sure of the first name or the correct spelling of the last, but it is close. in this post there was a clip of him swimming and it was with jetboat flutter kick at very high turnover rate and very, very smooth. Will continue searching but if anyone else can come up with it that would be wonderful.
Have really enjoyed this discussion between Charles and Suzanne and others. You all provide alot of meat for the forum.
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Last edited by Grant : 10-12-2012 at 12:32 AM.
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