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  #31  
Old 06-02-2016
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Hi Desc,

Thanks for your feedback. Both Gerry and I are LA Tri Club coaches and have mutual respect, we really have far more in common than what separates us.

I'm curious though of your "TI swimmer". Was she/he self coached through DVD/book only until getting live feedback from one of your coaches on deck?

The question wasn't rhetorical. Both propulsive and resistant forces work and react together for any vessel that moves through water. Propulsive forces must exceed resistant forces in order to move forward - I'm sure we can agree on that. Is it better to increase power to overcome resistant forces, or decrease resistant forces to move faster?

I've swam next to triathletes (many who are good swim friends) that have a stroke rate of 70-75spm, and I at 55-60spm - and both of us going the same speed or velocity. My priority is maintaining the shape of the vessel and getting a good grip/hold on the water, while the triathlete in focusing on the low side (pulling arm) moving water back fast. Both arrive at the same solution (or speed) given the problem. It all comes down to some math that many seem to reject or ignore, math that started with Bill Boomer and Terry notes in his presentation. SPM * SL = Velocity or speed. Like propulsive and resistant forces, stroke rate and stroke length are not mutually exclusive.

Stuart
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  #32  
Old 06-02-2016
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Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
Hi Desc,

Thanks for your feedback. Both Gerry and I are LA Tri Club coaches and have mutual respect, we really have far more in common than what separates us.

I'm curious though of your "TI swimmer". Was she/he self coached through DVD/book only until getting live feedback from one of your coaches on deck?

The question wasn't rhetorical. Both propulsive and resistant forces work and react together for any vessel that moves through water. Propulsive forces must exceed resistant forces in order to move forward - I'm sure we can agree on that. Is it better to increase power to overcome resistant forces, or decrease resistant forces to move faster?

I've swam next to triathletes (many who are good swim friends) that have a stroke rate of 70-75spm, and I at 55-60spm - and both of us going the same speed or velocity. My priority is maintaining the shape of the vessel and getting a good grip/hold on the water, while the triathlete in focusing on the low side (pulling arm) moving water back fast. Both arrive at the same solution (or speed) given the problem. It all comes down to some math that many seem to reject or ignore, math that started with Bill Boomer and Terry notes in his presentation. SPM * SL = Velocity or speed. Like propulsive and resistant forces, stroke rate and stroke length are not mutually exclusive.

Stuart
I will have to ask him what his exact material exposure was, but if I understood him from first meeting his old tri coach was a TI proponent who taught that to all the people on the tri-team. Not sure if he went deeper than that on his own.

Well I agree that propulsion has to overcome whatever drag that swimmer presents. Regarding your triathlete compatriots. Have you possibly had a chance to swim next to someone who swims at say 70-75spm who leaves you in the proverbial dust in that group of swimmers you are with? And if so is that person 'doing it wrong?'. From my chair I would say no b/c for many of us it's about touching the wall first. Could that person possibly be faster at a slower stroke rate? Absolutely it's possible. I just know in my own swimming the harder I practice the faster I get! If that changes I might think about trying something else b/c all I'm looking for is steady progress and if I stop getting that then I gotta hit the drawing board. I just know I'm not going to be the guy who walks up to the stud leading lane 1 at practice who races the 200-500 at about 75-80 spm and tell him he needs to rethink his stroke:/ I mean the guy was good enough to go to college for free at a big D1 program so he can't be that bad. Likewise it would be hard to tell the new guy on the squad that by adding a 6 beat and picking up his SR that he's making a mistake, while he has simultaneously become fast enough to start making the send offs.

In a nutshell. It *seems* and perhaps I'm wrong there is so much confusion with applying TI and people not getting faster here on this forum that I question why no one wants to look at what has worked and keeps working for thousands and thousands of Masters swimmers around the world. Show up, swim with some intensity and repeat and get faster. That is what resonated with Gerry's Do's and Don't list: Don't use front quadrant or a catch up stroke. Don't bilateral breathe. Don't forget to incorporate fast swimming in every single workout. Don't have low stroke rates. Swim a good portion high intensity sets. etc. Then I look at the hundreds of testimonials on his page of people saying how they met and blew past their goals seems like he is doing a lot right, but it seems to be in stark contrast to TI in many respects.

Last edited by descending : 06-02-2016 at 05:23 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2016
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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A little nerdy correction: its enough for propulsive forces to match resistive forces to move forward.
If they exceed resistive forces you will accelerate.(until the resistive forces are equal to propulsive forces again)
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  #34  
Old 06-02-2016
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I will have to ask him what his exact material exposure was, but if I understood him from first meeting his old tri coach was a TI proponent who taught that to all the people on the tri-team. Not sure if he went deeper than that on his own.
It would be good to find out if you don't mind. There are a lot of swimmers that have studied TI want to help others that are struggling as they did, but not being trained, often limit their progress. But I don't want to discourage intentions, which are always good. In any case, I'm curious to find out some more detail of your "TI Swimmer" rather than broad statements.

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Well I agree that propulsion has to overcome whatever drag that swimmer presents. Regarding your triathlete compatriots. Have you possibly had a chance to swim next to someone who swims at say 70-75spm who leaves you in the proverbial dust in that group of swimmers you are with? And if so is that person 'doing it wrong?'. From my chair I would say no b/c for many of us it's about touching the wall first. Could that person possibly be faster at a slower stroke rate? Absolutely it's possible. I just know in my own swimming the harder I practice the faster I get! If that changes I might think about trying something else b/c all I'm looking for is steady progress and if I stop getting that then I gotta hit the drawing board. I just know I'm not going to be the guy who walks up to the stud leading lane 1 at practice who races the 200-500 at about 75-80 spm and tell him he needs to rethink his stroke:/ I mean the guy was good enough to go to college for free at a big D1 program so he can't be that bad. Likewise it would be hard to tell the new guy on the squad that by adding a 6 beat and picking up his SR that he's making a mistake, while he has simultaneously become fast enough to start making the send offs.
Both yes and no. I can certainly pick up turnover and pass the guy at the same rate, but I can't sustain that for a 800m, mile or two. And likewise, one who leaves me in the dust at the beginning typically begins to slow toward the end of the swim. This happened to me at bridge to bridge last year - couldn't hang on to this guys wheelhouse much longer than 5 minutes before he left me, but I finished just ahead of him at the end. But I think negative split and didn't want to blow up too early. That's a choice I made given that distance and works for me, it doesn't mean that works for others. You are making this one vs the other and presenting in the context of short to mid range pool races. Triathlon is a completely different context. The first one coming out of the water in triathlon, doesn't win the race. It's the one who can execute the entire race well and set PR. You don't need to worry about that in comp pool races since there's nothing immediately following that event - and this is the zone you work best and is a choice you make.

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Originally Posted by descending View Post
In a nutshell. It *seems* and perhaps I'm wrong there is so much confusion with applying TI and people not getting faster here on this forum that I question why no one wants to look at what has worked and keeps working for thousands and thousands of Masters swimmers around the world. Show up, swim with some intensity and repeat and get faster. That is what resonated with Gerry's Do's and Don't list: Don't use front quadrant or a catch up stroke. Don't bilateral breathe. Don't forget to incorporate fast swimming in every single workout. Don't have low stroke rates. Swim a good portion high intensity sets. etc. Then I look at the hundreds of testimonials on his page of people saying how they met and blew past their goals seems like he is doing a lot right, but it seems to be in stark contrast to TI in many respects.
Again - these are choices, not a comparison. You also assume that TI doesn't advocate high intensity sets. It's important to run swimmers through all gears not just slow or fast rates; swimming long sets with negative or positive splits. But they should know where their limits are, what they can sustain for the distance they are swimming, as well as what works for their physiology and psyche.

Stuart
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  #35  
Old 06-02-2016
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Will ask the guy tonight what his total experience was/is with TI from genesis to now.

I keep forgetting no one here pool races. I'm so swept up in short course racing I lose my bearings, but as I get more bald and grey beard I'm allowed to lose it a little right?

I was not aware TI works through high intensity sets that's a great thing then at least from my reading here I didn't get that people are pushing their red line at all in practice. Meaning it reads like people stop when it gets difficult and go to work on something technical as the fix vs going as long/hard as they can until the stroke falls apart. So TI does blend high end fitness in. That's a win then.

Last edited by descending : 06-02-2016 at 06:59 PM.
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  #36  
Old 06-03-2016
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Cool, look forward to hearing some details

re: Intensity/Difficulty. Yes and no. The "don't practice struggle" is often misinterpreted, especially by those swim 6-8k daily where swimming is mostly a grind, especially the last half. I generally encourage swimmers not to mask/imprint errors with more yards, and avoid muscling through a set for the sake of only finishing the set sloppy.

I've been introducing a lot more USRPT sets; miss your goal pace three times, stop and reset. Sets like these require razor sharp focus on each stroke and every turn. I think most importantly, always mixing up, challenging the neural system first, physical conditioning is more consequential which support correct movement patterns and adaptations.

Balance errors are masked by high turnover rate, new movement patterns and stroke corrections require slowing turnover to imprint before turning up the gas again, and done so progressively. I'm sure most coaches would agree with that statement, especially the later.

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 06-03-2016 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 06-03-2016
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Cool, look forward to hearing some details

re: Intensity/Difficulty. Yes and no. The "don't practice struggle" is often misinterpreted, especially by those swim 6-8k daily where swimming is mostly a grind, especially the last half. I generally encourage swimmers not to mask/imprint errors with more yards, and avoid muscling through a set for the sake of only finishing the set sloppy.

I've been introducing a lot more USRPT sets; miss your goal pace three times, stop and reset. Sets like these require razor sharp focus on each stroke and every turn. I think most importantly, always mixing up, challenging the neural system first, physical conditioning is more consequential which support correct movement patterns and adaptations.

Balance errors are masked by high turnover rate, new movement patterns and stroke corrections require slowing turnover to imprint before turning up the gas again, and done so progressively. I'm sure most coaches would agree with that statement, especially the later.



Stuart
Oh I definitely agree a faster turn over can mask a lot of bad problems. I just see so many people in the triathlete realm who have strokes that are more than capable of going a lot faster they just tinker around trying to reach total perfection before putting any effort into a workout. I have two triathlete friends in particular who both have strokes that are better than mine but I can whip them by 2 and 3 minutes in a 500. I don't even swim distance and my IM relay swim split time was 15 minutes faster than one of these guys. All he needs to do is swim harder and he will be a monster and he constantly talks about his desire to get faster. He thinks he needs better technique. A six-month block of hard swimming and he would close the gap on me greatly in within a year he'd catch me and pass me.

Last edited by descending : 06-03-2016 at 02:59 AM.
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  #38  
Old 06-03-2016
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Oh I definitely agree a faster turn over can mask a lot of bad problems. I just see so many people in the triathlete realm who have strokes that are more than capable of going a lot faster they just tinker around trying to reach total perfection before putting any effort into a workout. I have two triathlete friends in particular who both have strokes that are better than mine but I can whip them by 2 and 3 minutes in a 500. I don't even swim distance and my IM relay swim split time was 15 minutes faster than one of these guys. All he needs to do is swim harder and he will be a monster and he constantly talks about his desire to get faster. He thinks he needs better technique. A six-month block of hard swimming and he would close the gap on me greatly in within a year he'd catch me and pass me.
I've been following this back and forth with some interest. Obviously I have learned a lot from Stuart, not the least being (last week) that my long-standing catch problem was really a lack of adequate core rotation, and the catch fixed itself once I fixed the core rotation deficit.

But desc has some good points; I wonder all the time how much they apply to me, and should I be doing more anaerobic sets, or more rapid cadence practice and ignore my already high SPL and just allow it to get even higher. I am an adult onset swimmer who, despite all my efforts and regular practice am amazingly slow considering the time and concentration I have put in. I know I have a high cardio-reparatory capacity for my age, and I know I have good upper body strength, and sometimes it seems like a mystery why it's taking so long. But I have utter respect for the very specific skills and particular strengths that swimming demands, and I have to allow some time for them to be developed -- fortunately I think it's finally starting to come to me.

I have resisted the knee jerk idea of "just pull harder" that seemed so attractive 2 years ago. In retrospect that was a good idea resolutely not to imprint struggle, because I think the improvements of the last few weeks would not have been possible had I not carefully avoided continuing whenever I was slipping out of whatever good technique level I had come to be capable of. As a result, now I'm increasingly able to hold on to reasonable form despite some fatigue stress from longer distance repeats. Consequently, I think I can start to go a little more in the direction that desc suggests in terms of intensity, but only because and as long as my technique holds up reasonably.

As Stuart has alluded to, being able to train fast is as important as being able to train less fast but with insight as to how long your pace will let you go for. Also some insight as to being able to independently parse your stroke rate and stroke distance can be very valuable. Keep in mind that both of you recognise that the end goal is the same -- to end up with the capability to complete the given event in the shortest amount of time. For myself, although I'm training for an event where I will do 1.9k or 3.8k in the water and the race is only 1/8th over, I do see the merit in sometimes training (swimming) at faster paces than I will be racing at, strictly to put on strength (the rationale being that having developed the strength to do the prescribed distance at quite a fast pace, I can back off a little in a tri race, and finish the swim leg in a faster time than I would have been able to had I not practiced intense swim sets, but still with lots of gas left in the tank for the rest of the race.).

Last edited by sclim : 06-03-2016 at 08:07 AM.
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  #39  
Old 06-03-2016
sclim sclim is offline
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Oh, descending, I forgot to ask, what is the rationale of the directive "never breathe bilaterally"? Is it always slower to do so when you're sprinting?
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  #40  
Old 06-03-2016
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Oh, descending, I forgot to ask, what is the rationale of the directive "never breathe bilaterally"? Is it always slower to do so when you're sprinting?
Sclim, the last podcast is actually about "the proper way a TRIATHLETE should breathe when swimming":

http://tower26.com/podcasts-2/

I still have to listen to it but, in short, the answer to your question is to get more breaths per minute.

By the way, did you listen to the podcast where he says that EVF is overprescribed?

Salvo
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