Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 05-26-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default Image and reality?

A kind nudge from my friend Stuart resulted in reading through old messages in my inbox. One was from ZT, sent years ago but still very pertinent. Sadly I am far from swimming a sub 2.00/100m kilometre let alone a continuous hour even!

Another one contained a video by Coach Suzanne which I had sent my friend Werner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeHQyqI7zq0 It stars someone called Sam who had a before-style very like to my own current-style! What leapt out from the video for me is that I have completely misunderstood two key coaching phrases.

It is clear from the video that the word "dropped", in the phrase "dropped elbow", is used not in respect of verticality but in respect of the horizontal plane i.e as if the swimmer were in a standing position rather than lying flat in the water. The problem from it is not that it is "berneath" but that it takes the lead.(see 4:34) Coach Suzanne brings this same clarity to the recovery elbow's trajectory, wherein the up-ness of the "high elbow recovery" is replaced with the outward-ness of it.

This post is like a small offering. I'd intended to come back and post only when some progress had come from the various observations I've made here over the years. Reading through my inbox though reminded me (again!) that it's the journey that counts not the destination, and of the value and place of the people of this community in that. So, fwiw a belated thank you, from a grateful prodigal son.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 05-26-2017 at 01:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-26-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Talvi,

good to see another post from you! Welcome back to the forum.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
It is clear from the video that the word "dropped", in the phrase "dropped elbow", is used not in respect of verticality but in respect of the horizontal plane i.e as if the swimmer were in a standing position rather than lying flat in the water. The problem from it is not that it is "beneath" but that it takes the lead.
I think you mean "takes the lead" as in "The elbow takes the lead during the pull phase"--i.e. the elbow moves backward first, leaving the hand and forearm in place, and causing them to become horizontal rather than vertical. So, if we imagine the swimmer standing up vertically, the elbow is moving downward (i.e. "dropping") as it starts the pull phase.

That makes sense to me--but of course, the elbow also "drops" in a vertical sense in that, as the elbow moves backward leading the pull, it also becomes lower in relation to the forearm and wrist. So, elbow above wrist, wrist above fingertips is aimed at fixing the same problem from another angle.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-26-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
Talvi,

good to see another post from you! Welcome back to the forum.
Thanks Tom :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
I think you mean "takes the lead" as in "The elbow takes the lead during the pull phase"--i.e. the elbow moves backward first, leaving the hand and forearm in place, and causing them to become horizontal rather than vertical. So, if we imagine the swimmer standing up vertically, the elbow is moving downward (i.e. "dropping") as it starts the pull phase.
Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
but of course, the elbow also "drops" in a vertical sense in that, as the elbow moves backward leading the pull, it also becomes lower in relation to the forearm and wrist. So, elbow above wrist, wrist above fingertips is aimed at fixing the same problem from another angle.
And that is most probably how those saying it mean it, but for me the relative positions of my hand, elbow, and shoulder in the fixed reference frame of the pool is beyond my ken while splashing around in 3D, so the point was lost. Reconfiguring the message so as to accord with the reference frame of my own body though suddenly makes sense of it.

I'm thinking of playing one step further down this route by overcorrecting. Instead of going for the goal of vertiocal forearm I want to see what going for a scoop produces, aiming perhaps to scoopall the way back to my thigh.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 05-26-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 712
Tom Pamperin
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
I'm thinking of playing one step further down this route by overcorrecting. Instead of going for the goal of vertiocal forearm I want to see what going for a scoop produces, aiming perhaps to scoopall the way back to my thigh.
I hope you report back--I'm intrigued by the idea of finding a focal point that works. As you say, it's virtually impossible to know exactly what you are doing as you swim since you can't see yourself. But if the "scoop" concept leads to effective arm motions, then that's all that matters. As soon as I read your post, I thought that "scoop" might be a very good way to describe the feeling of a more vertical-forearm pull.
__________________
Tom
www.tompamperin.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 05-26-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

You can buy some stretch cords. Attach them high so you can use them in a straight, normal swim posture, only standing instead of lying. You can even stand on one leg and combine a kick with a pull movement to get your core also involved in a more swimlike manner.
Watch how elite swimmers move when seen from pool bottom to watersurface and mimic that movement, using a mirror.
Repeat until that movement becomes your automatic movement.
Right before going to the pool, repeat the right movement on dryland until your muscles become painfull, sore and exhausted.
Now go to the pool ,swim and feel if your movement mimics the painfull dryland movement.
If thats the case you have a chance you usually make the right movements in the water.
If the movements feel very different in the water, you use different muscles so you dont make the right movements when you swim.
Its a crude method, but without self footage or a good coach it can be usefull.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 05-27-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default

Hello Talvi,

glad you're back for some posts one and then! (More might be better, but as you say, the way itself is more important... :-) )

A bunch of strokes in new steady enjoyment!

Best regards,
Werner
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-01-2017
Talvi Talvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Lappeenranta, Finland
Posts: 1,675
Talvi
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
You can buy some stretch cords. Attach them high so you can use them in a straight, normal swim posture, only standing instead of lying. You can even stand on one leg and combine a kick with a pull movement to get your core also involved in a more swimlike manner.
Watch how elite swimmers move when seen from pool bottom to watersurface and mimic that movement, using a mirror....
Funnily I have set up something similar - from the headboard of my bed, but I have not used the pain-indicator method. I must take some care not to damage myself as although I do heal still it's a slow process. And I'm not sure if it has been so useful. The approximation of self-directed dryland movements is a source of significant error to the extent that I sledom find they carry over into the pool in a helpful manner. I think that getting the feeling for the water is the important thing but as Werner noted, it is a puzzle with each piece dependent upon and changed by every other piece. I have been getting a feel for the water at the extended reach by a sort of sculling, I think that "fear" is the main barrier to swimming development. It's not a conscious fear but something at the level of "muscle memory" - it's our bodies saying "Hang on a b*y minute you're going to do us in if I don't keep an eye on things here!". We can't micro-manage every single one of the hundreds of muscles in our body. We can only focus on a few at a time. That leaves 99% of them to pretty much get on with it unsupervised, so they tend to revert to habit, even if in only very subtle ways. It's extremely hard to feel this at the time. I like to become tired and rest and catch my breath by relaxing in the water and feeling myself lying on it, more than swimming in in.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:39 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.