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CoachSuzanne 07-30-2012 07:51 PM

Things I've been watching
Things I've been observing in underwater video of all strokes...

-Angle of the propulsive surface (ie palm/wrist/forearm). Where does it face on entry? How is it next positioned? What path does it take? Where is it "released" from the water?

-Flexibility of shoulders. Most elites have incredibly flexible shoulders. How does this flexibility impact the first observation and how should I modify those objectives given the limitations of myself & my students from a flexibility point of view

-The palms. I love watching the palms come out of the water, seemingly hover forward skimming the surface, entering the water usually slippping in, less often splashing in and then watching how the swimmer seems to be waiting (only a fraction of a second) until they can feel a solid surface under the palm before the next movement. I imagine what they are feeling.

-Strength. At this level of competition, strength is evident. Whwere in the stroke cycle is the strength applied? How can I swim with similar grace possessing less strength and full body coordination under that amount of power? Where is my break point where my power (small as it may be) overcomes my ability to maintain excellent form?

All fun things to observe.

swimust 07-31-2012 07:16 AM

"strength..." - is this a TI post? I guess not ;)

to my humble/stupid opinion strength can change a lot of things.
I.E. - I noticed from above camera in the backstroke style that most swimmers are recovering the arm on the head axis (over the head line) and not on the shoulder axis (vertical line). I tried that in the pool today and it gives a lot of power and fulcrum on entry in water. Its coming from the shoulder but I got tired after few laps doing the "over head" recovery.
I can break the world record doing that and then die happy after a one 25 meters lap ;)

Another "test" that I did today was "Horizontal upper arm HEC".
I managed to hold full laps of HEC at about 5-10* degrees angle of upper arm from the surface of water but I needed much more upper arm strength to hold the pull for a longer swim distance. My upper arm wasnt strong enough to pull hard for more than 20-25 strokes at about 1 sec SR (stroke rate), but I was amazed to know that I can do the HEC just like the professionals. My arm held position.
I played a lot of basketball in the past and shot a lot of over head jump shoots which built my deltoids/rotator cuff. I guess that thats the reason I could do an olympic HEC on my first try. But I have no upper arm strength so my pull wasnt strong enough. The arm and shoulder felt fine with 10* angle.

Thats not TI and I am a serious TI student so I am out of this topic ;)

P.S. - I wasnt kicking at all during the HEC swim. I hate to kick. I only know the toe flick. I wish I had no legs when I swim freestyle.
I dont need them!

terry 07-31-2012 11:02 AM

Discovering French Swimmers
What I enjoy about the quadrennial spectacle most is discovering wonderful swimmers I'd not been aware of previously. And sometimes finding they come from unexpected places. Like France. Or Nice.
Yannick Agnel, who thoroughly dominated the powerful group of Park, Sun and Lochte in wining the 200 Free -- and is only 20 years old -- comes from the club Olympic Nice Natation, coached by Fabrice Pellerin, called an iconoclast in this revealing NY Times article "French Savor Swimming Success."

The article didn't make clear why he's considered iconoclastic in France. Pecause he's a high-volume oriented coach? I don't know if that goes against the grain in French swimming. One thing is certain, something's working for the Nice club, because Agnel also had that stunning anchor leg on the 4 x 100 relay and another club member, Clement Lefert, was also on that relay.

And finally Camille Muffat, who already won the 400 free and looks like a strong bet to win the 200 Free, swims there as well. Watching those races I thought Camille looked as much like a TI Swimmer as any of the top women in freestyle. Her Ear Hop recovery and Mail Slot entry -- impressively maintained at high rate and full power -- stand out for their elegance in any heat she swims in. While watching the 400 Free final, when Allison Schmitt of the US challenged her at 300m, I felt fairly sure that Muffat would hold her off, because her steeper entry better converts 'inherent' power to applied power than the flatter entry of Schmitt.

As for Agnel, he's tall - 6'8" - and rangy, not powerful. So he must rely on being able to move his long limbs and body at fairly high rate, and get his forearms in a high-traction (EVF) position immediately upon entry. It's a body and stroke type even better adapted to 200m than 100m.

newbie2012 07-31-2012 12:57 PM

One interesting bit of trivia that I've heard on French TV, is that Agnel never switched to swimming with the full suits (when they started being used some years ago), but continued with "classic" style (that is used today as well after banning full suits)

newbie2012 07-31-2012 01:29 PM


Originally Posted by terry (Post 30001)
Because he's a high-volume oriented coach?

Seems like the daily training means two 2.5hrs sessions, 15-16km swim per day, gym workouts every two days, trainings sessions every day of the year Sundays included with just a couple days off overall.

Talvi 08-11-2012 06:49 AM

I couldn't see the TI ..
Besides the "deformed" muscle masses of the swimmers:

- and that isn't photoshopped - the thing that I did NOT notice was the swimmers using the two beat kick (in freestyle) ... anyone have an explanation of why not ?

Richardsk 08-11-2012 09:29 AM

See Suzanne's reply to my post in the backstroke forum 'Can I have lats like that?@

Talvi 08-11-2012 10:53 AM


Originally Posted by Richardsk (Post 30306)
See Suzanne's reply to my post in the backstroke forum 'Can I have lats like that?@

re Suzanne's reply to you, bowing similarly I'd want a feel :D

... but anyone got/seen any remarks re: 2-beat kick v. what the elite swimmers do (is it 6-beat?)?

Richardsk 08-11-2012 11:13 AM

Hi Talvi

In the sprint events they all (nearly all?) use a six-beat kick. In the backstroke Ryosuke Irie uses a kick that looks like a two-beat with extra miniature kicks. In the 1500 most of the men use a combination of four-beat for most of the race and six-beat for the final sprint. Usually, in the 800, there will be some women who use a two-beat. I believe Becky Adlington uses a six-beat throughout and I think Katie Ledecky does, too, but will have to wait until video footage becomes available to be sure. Pellegrini is basically a two-beat kicker in distance races but I think she uses a six-beat for the 200.

Video footage of the London Olympics has not yet appeared on youtube as far as I know and may well not appear if the copyright holder has other plans for the footage.

Richardsk 08-11-2012 11:26 AM

I found this video, which seems to show, if I am right, that Ledecky is using a combination of two, six and four-beat kicks in the early stages of the race.

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