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WFEGb 11-17-2014 10:29 AM

Fixing the grip
 
Hello,

Ron's posts in "How to integrate..." lead me opening a new thread about the grip in water. Sure (myself) adding power is not the right way. Hope I'll get some hints here how to add.

Maybe some you know my problem (well, it's only one of many...). I'm, a slow stroker (comfortable from TT 1.4-1.7). There is a minimal (felt) arm velocity to get the feeling water becomes thick and get a grip. Not sure, but I think this is the arm velocity when the moving hand/arm causes light turbulence. (And it's an amayzing drill to swim some laps so slow that you just do not feel the grip...) But when shortening the SR to approximately 1.15-1.2, without taking up too many strokes for me the feel starts I become a soda machine and and adding more force/power into stroke has no effect in more pace but than losing energy.

OK, I become more tensed with this SRs and surely best streamline will be not really best as (felt) for 1.4. But there must be a solution how to add more force/power without just losing it.

Terry once wrote, building the catch should happen as slow and forceless as possible and the push/stroke as fast as possible. But I'm sure there is some extreme tiny non linear accerleration adjustment between falling into catch and fastest possible push that will make a real big difference in pace.

Are there any metaphors, drills, analogies or researches how to focus in that? Or have we just to get used of higher SRs and it will happen some time ... or never?

Best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 11-17-2014 03:46 PM

My perception of grip in relation to swim speed:

zero to low speed slower than 2.30 min/100m: little grip, water is thin and flowing around the arm/hand.
little more speed 2.30-2 min/100m: little more grip
little more speed:2-1.30 min/100m optimal grip (best DPS)
max speed 1.10/100m( only for 25 m) loosing traction, arm traction starts breaking away. Massive drag felt on body.

For better swimmers this window of optimal traction seems to shift to higher speeds. Maybe real good swimmers can find traction at any speed. Dont know very good swimmers.

If you are loosing traction at a low speed you create too much drag, have too little traction surface, or not building the pressure on the surface gradually I think.

If the basic movement patterns are right there is no absolute need for a super sensitive touch. There will be not much slippage even when swimming a bit rough or jerky.But smooth movements delay the breakaway limit a bit.
When I imagine my hand and forearm attached to a plank and thinking of sticking that plank in the mud and pulling the body past and over it, I get the best tractiion, even if there isnt a plank.

WFEGb 11-17-2014 04:22 PM

Hello Zenturtle,

thanks for your answer. My optimal traction lies between 1:45-2:10min/100m. But it seems to break down totally below 1:40. (I'm aware that are slow speeds (in absolute terms) - Suzanne's recovery...)

Quote:

If you are loosing traction at a low speed you create too much drag, have too little traction surface, or not building the pressure on the surface gradually I think.
Well, I hope my drag/streamline is not cause of that gripless hole. The traction surface of hand/arm will be constant (more or less) and yes, how can I build the gradually right pressure before loosing ideal traction? Think it's similar as a mirrorpoint to the slowest stroke where you just can feel traction starts. Think it shouldn't be a jerk, more gently but forcefully acceleration with maximum force applyed just at the last stroke cm. But how to adjust this?

Best regards,
Werner

Janos 11-17-2014 06:21 PM

Hi Werner, I suggest you practice sculling to gain a more perceptive feel for the water. You also have to remember that the feel for catch is not only felt at the arm, but from the hip too. Otherwise it is just a pull. Underswitch is an invaluable exercise for this. More hip drive means more power, but you have to able to transmit that via your arm, so you need to develop that relationship.

Zenturtle 11-17-2014 07:02 PM

yep, for basic feel for the water with the arms and hands I too would say Scull drils.
Not ideal to overthink this, Better let the body learn by itself after a lot of sculling praxtice. Most important to make an underwater arm movement that gives some resisitive surface area, Thats not an horizontal arm with a dropped elbow.

Anoter more TI like view on slipping is timing between armpull and body rotation.
If you are working against bodyrotation your pull will feel slippery, lost and tiring.
The basic movement where the pull is buitl upon is the rotating treelog.
The pull must fit in the rolling rhytm of the treelog just like the push of a swing at the right moment.
A bad timed pull feels just as waisted and energy sapping as a swing push thats totally off.
A lot od swimmers can swim fast without a big atm surface (with closed fists), so its not only about hands.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ra4JL8Jfk

Danny 11-17-2014 08:51 PM

Hi Werner,

I don't usually get very much below 2 min/100 m, so my comments may have limited relevance, but here they are, for whatever they are worth.

First, I can remember only being able to swim at much slower speeds than I now swim at, and I can ask myself what changed between then and now. It certainly wasn't the conscious force I was applying to the water. On the contrary, it sometimes seems to me that, as my speed has increased, my effort and force has, if anything decreased.

One might argue that the explanation for what I experienced is that, when my technique was much worse than it is now, streamlining was the major way to improve. Clearly at some point, streamlining starts to become optimized and then one can only increase speed by working harder. If so, my question is: At what speed does this trade-off start to occur? It probably depends on body type, but, for a body like mine (1.8m, 68kg) when have I started to optimize streamlining so that I need to start focussing more on the effort side? Is it at about 2 min./100m? Any thoughts?

WFEGb 11-18-2014 08:04 PM

Hello,

thank you very much for your answers. But still some replies...

@ Janos,
Quote:

Hi Werner, I suggest you practice sculling to gain a more perceptive feel for the water. You also have to remember that the feel for catch is not only felt at the arm, but from the hip too. Otherwise it is just a pull. Underswitch is an invaluable exercise for this. More hip drive means more power, but you have to able to transmit that via your arm, so you need to develop that relationship.
Not sure, if sculling drills are are right for what I'd call (higher tempos - 1.2s TT). Honestly, I don't know how to do them for fitting there. Involving the hips. This sounds worth some tries. Can you give some points of edge I have to focus in to get it right. So, when this relation does not fit right, you'll never get a good grip at higher rates... How to find the (varying?) relationships for different SRs? And how to avoid over rotating, when adding more power to hips rotation, when the body still is a log?

@ Zenturtle,
same above questions. I do have a most times good feeling for rotation and grip in my slower SRs. (OK, this feeling may be misleading and still bad. It's very subjective.) But today I swam some ATPs and tweaked the TT down until strokerange run out of my green zone. This happened first at 1.14s and second time at 1.12s. SR jumped from 19-18 to 21-23.

Hmmm just think about to swim some ATPs with closed fists...

(BTW what's atm surface?)


@ Danny,
Quote:

I don't usually get very much below 2 min/100 m, so my comments may have limited relevance, but here they are, for whatever they are worth.
I'm glad too if most of my times after pooltime show pace below 2min/100m (especially when swam in LCM...) And every answer is worthful for me. There is one out there helping me to think in an other direction what ever it is.

Quote:

If so, my question is: At what speed does this trade-off start to occur? It probably depends on body type, but, for a body like mine (1.8m, 68kg) when have I started to optimize streamlining so that I need to start focussing more on the effort side? Is it at about 2 min./100m? Any thoughts?
Bit jealous about your body shape (63y, 1.86m, 105kg(!?)) it's the same sticking point I am sometimes. I guess Terry's answer will be: Every work in streamline and ballance will pay off more than thinking how to add power.

So in my case adding more power in form of higher SRs leads into something I'd call a gripless gap. So I'd like not to add power but would like to apply it in the right way. How to do? 1.2s is a SR where I don't know anymore if there is anything to focus on than getting the stroke completed at next bong...

Best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 11-18-2014 10:35 PM

atm is arm.
Dont you have video footage. Its a bit a waiste of words only going by your perception.
I guess you are entering to close to the centerline and pulling with dropped elbows.
The coinnection of the pull with body rotation is fixed for a wide range of strokerates.
You are used to very low strokerates. 55-60 strokes/min is still a low strokerate in a non TI world. Cettainly not a rate that is associated with spinning , flailing etc.
Sculling ingrains arm positions that give optimal traction. At any strokerate or speed.

For a mental image. Normally a good traction feels like the arm is laying on a thin layer of ice, Giving more resistance than expected.
If you pull too fast, jerky or out of sync with bodyrotation your arm will break through the thin ice layer and shoot down without traction.
Another example is pulling a car with a very thin rope that is not very strong.
A snooth long pull can get the car going, then follow up going gradually to the next pull etc to keep the car rolling.. Pulling too fast or uncontrolled and the rope will break.

Danny 11-18-2014 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49406)

So in my case adding more power in form of higher SRs leads into something I'd call a gripless gap. So I'd like not to add power but would like to apply it in the right way. How to do? 1.2s is a SR where I don't know anymore if there is anything to focus on than getting the stroke completed at next bong...

Best regards,
Werner

Werner, all I have to offer is stuff you've probably heard before, but I was thinking about your question this morning when I was swimming. It seems to me that part of this is feeling the water, but I think of it more as knowing that your arm and hand are in a position to pull back, not down, when you want to work them. I find that some swimming with my hands closed in a fist helps with this. I also find that timing my rotation so that my shoulder is up before I pull back is critical. Finally, I find that an emphasis on accomplishing as much of the work with body rotation and also shoulder rotation helps make the stroke easier. By shoulder rotation I mean that your shoulders are moving forward and backward to power your stroke as your body rotates. All of this is old stuff, but as you increase the stroke rate, you start to tense up and wind up trying to do more with your arms than with your body. Your timing also starts to get rough.

So in summary, for me the problem is executing these things at a higher stroke rate as well as I can execute them at a lower stroke rate. This seems like a problem of training your nervous system to execute the same movements faster. This is a different problem from feeling a good grip on the water, so I don't know if any of this is relevant to you...

Will be interested to hear what others have to say.

Zenturtle 11-19-2014 08:36 AM

BINGO!

You are on the right track.

CharlesCouturier 11-20-2014 12:12 AM

Werner, the DPS you may be loosing as a result of increasing the rate may as well be cheating DPS. Let me explain. Passed a certain point, it's possible to earn more DPS at the expense of the time, or the pace, or the forward velocity. In this case, as you increase the rate, you're loosing more and more of this not so legit DPS. Things get back to normal in other words.

If this DPS doesn't belong to "you", then I'm afraid it could be difficult to retain it as you increase the rate. When you really own some DPS, then it shouldn't drop by more than a few strokes per length as the rate increases.

Based on what you wrote, I'm not sure that 19 should be a sustainable target. There's nothing wrong in training aiming for this or even below. It should be part of most people's training process at some point. But there's also not much wrong in dropping 3 strokes and moving up to 22spl as you increase the rate and get at or even over your CSS pace (a pace that's theoretically sustainable for 800-1500m).

I'm about to resume swimming. I intend to spend a lot of time pulling big gears (in my case about 12-13spl at a pace of 1min30/100m). But when things heat up, my real DPS is closer to 17 than it is to 13. So right there you have a good 4 stroke gap between when I train for streamlining and when I train for fitness. You'd need to pay me several 1000s of $$ to convince me to hold on to my best possible DPS at all costs. Way too hard on shoulders. And it requires way too much maintenance.

sclim 11-20-2014 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier (Post 49428)
So right there you have a good 4 stroke gap between when I train for streamlining and when I train for fitness. You'd need to pay me several 1000s of $$ to convince me to hold on to my best possible DPS at all costs. Way too hard on shoulders. And it requires way too much maintenance.

Wow, to us inexperienced beginners this sounds like heresy! But it would seem that this is a valuable lesson in "reality" vs "theory only", and certainly, you're the one with the actual experience.

One small clarification, please; when you say "train for streamlining vs training for fitness", would it be expressed better as "training for DPS vs training for speed". I can't believe you can sacrifice streamlining and still get speed -- surely you are only sacrificing the "illegitimate" or "cheating" portion, as you put it, of the DPS, rather than streamlining per se as you crank up the tempo.

And when you say "requires way too much maintenance" are you being literal, i.e. does your shoulder break down and require rest, medication or even eventually surgery? Or is the "maintenance" you refer to meaning only committing to the low stroke rate, attention to perfect drag-less mechanics etc., to get the high DPS, which is only possible at these low tempos, which you are unwilling to do when you aim for faster pace?

CoachSuzanne 11-20-2014 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 49432)
Wow, to us inexperienced beginners this sounds like heresy! But it would seem that this is a valuable lesson in "reality" vs "theory only", and certainly, you're the one with the actual experience.

It shouldn't sound like heresy. SPL too low is highly taxing on shoulders and requires force & strength that not everyone can access. In finding your "green zone" comfort range, learning when to "let go" of some SPL in exchange for lowering the force with each stroke sometimes occurs at the expense of creating shoulder pain or overuse injury.

In my experience, muscular men tend to be able to hold a lower SPL more comfortably than a leaner man or woman of the same height/armspan.

WFEGb 11-20-2014 03:48 PM

Hello Zenturtle,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 49410)
atm is arm.
Dont you have video footage. Its a bit a waiste of words only going by your perception.
I guess you are entering to close to the centerline and pulling with dropped elbows.
The coinnection of the pull with body rotation is fixed for a wide range of strokerates.
You are used to very low strokerates. 55-60 strokes/min is still a low strokerate in a non TI world. Cettainly not a rate that is associated with spinning , flailing etc.
Sculling ingrains arm positions that give optimal traction. At any strokerate or speed.

For a mental image. Normally a good traction feels like the arm is laying on a thin layer of ice, Giving more resistance than expected.
If you pull too fast, jerky or out of sync with bodyrotation your arm will break through the thin ice layer and shoot down without traction.
Another example is pulling a car with a very thin rope that is not very strong.
A snooth long pull can get the car going, then follow up going gradually to the next pull etc to keep the car rolling.. Pulling too fast or uncontrolled and the rope will break.

Sorry, didn't get the "arm-connection"...

Video is more difficult in our pools than thaught. Have a camera but mostly it's dark, when coming to pool, and on weekends pools are crowded and most others don't like cameras nearby... Although I'll try to focus more often on wide tracks and vertical forearm at higher SRs. Can be right that elbow slips at higher rates. Today tried with a deeper spear to get the catch ready. The stroke itself felt easier but had to take two strokes more (LCM).

Sculling drills, have an aversion. But this Aversion might show directly the best way...

Syrup fits my feeling for the water better than thin ice. But syrup doesn't become more fluid so your ice example will be better at least. But your pulling car with thin rope is very good. This does fit very well.

Thank you and best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 11-20-2014 06:09 PM

Hello Danny,

Quote:

Werner, all I have to offer is stuff you've probably heard before, but I was thinking about your question this morning when I was swimming. It seems to me that part of this is feeling the water, but I think of it more as knowing that your arm and hand are in a position to pull back, not down, when you want to work them. I find that some swimming with my hands closed in a fist helps with this.
Teachers often say with a smile: Education lives from Repetition. And there seems my pull back is critical. Finally, I find that an emphasis on accomplishing as much of the work with body rotation and also shoulder rotation helps make always something new in when anyone tells things you heard before. Yes, I'll take this fist-swimming into my next pooltimes (week after next week). Will see what happens.

Quote:

I also find that timing my rotation so that my shoulder is up before the stroke easier. By shoulder rotation I mean that your shoulders are moving forward and backward to power your stroke as your body rotates. All of this is old stuff, but as you increase the stroke rate, you start to tense up and wind up trying to do more with your arms than with your body. Your timing also starts to get rough.
Shoulder up before stroking. Hmm. Isn't it too early? Think I'm flat when catch is finished and rotation to other side starts synchron with push/stroke.

Shoulders back one side forward other side for me is a reason for fishtailing if done too strong or extensive.

Quote:

So in summary, for me the problem is executing these things at a higher stroke rate as well as I can execute them at a lower stroke rate. This seems like a problem of training your nervous system to execute the same movements faster. This is a different problem from feeling a good grip on the water, so I don't know if any of this is relevant to you...

Will be interested to hear what others have to say.
Same for me, but I'm insecure if in that same movement the focus has to be sharpened for faster SRsin other points of the stroke...

Thanks and best regards,
Werner

sclim 11-20-2014 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49388)
But when shortening the SR to approximately 1.15-1.2, without taking up too many strokes for me the feel starts I become a soda machine and and adding more force/power into stroke has no effect in more pace but than losing energy.

Just to understand you clearly, when you become a soda machine etc., and you are losing energy, this is manifested as a marked rise in SPL, right?

@CoachSuzanne: It only seemed like heresy because I was blindly adhering to only one part of the sacred text! Thanks for pointing me again to the other parts, and balancing out my knowledge.

WFEGb 11-20-2014 06:52 PM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

Werner, the DPS you may be loosing as a result of increasing the rate may as well be cheating DPS. Let me explain. Passed a certain point, it's possible to earn more DPS at the expense of the time, or the pace, or the forward velocity. In this case, as you increase the rate, you're loosing more and more of this not so legit DPS. Things get back to normal in other words.
How to find what's legit? Admiring van Hazel's demo, he swims 34 SPL (LCM) with (nearly) any SR. More to my options: I can swim 16SPL (SCM) with pace 2:15min/100m and with 1:45min/100m. Last I can't do for more than 4 laps once a day. That's extreme uncomfortable. There I tend to let the SPL break down (up) to >20SPL or so, but it's still uncomfortable...

Quote:

If this DPS doesn't belong to "you", then I'm afraid it could be difficult to retain it as you increase the rate. When you really own some DPS, then it shouldn't drop by more than a few strokes per length as the rate increases.
What DPS/SPL does belong to me? As a TI-believer I'd say my green zone:14.5-18.5SPL. Lets say 20SPLs are right sometimes for some reasons, but what causes the 22-26SPL gap below 1.2s. (Might be of interest. It seems to get down a little in the last days to 1.14-1.10, but working on that edge seems to be more randomly success or failure.)

Quote:

Based on what you wrote, I'm not sure that 19 should be a sustainable target. There's nothing wrong in training aiming for this or even below. It should be part of most people's training process at some point. But there's also not much wrong in dropping 3 strokes and moving up to 22spl as you increase the rate and get at or even over your CSS pace (a pace that's theoretically sustainable for 800-1500m).
And here the question also: What should be a sustainable target, and how can I work it out? Don't know if I can say my CSS pace is just below 2:00min/100m. But swam it with TT set to 1.44s and with 16-18SPLs. Without TT I'm mostly around 20:15min/1000m also with 16-18SPLs. Loosing the feeling for a constant pace. Laptimes shows extreme difference up to 10s.

Quote:

I'm about to resume swimming. I intend to spend a lot of time pulling big gears (in my case about 12-13spl at a pace of 1min30/100m). But when things heat up, my real DPS is closer to 17 than it is to 13. So right there you have a good 4 stroke gap between when I train for streamlining and when I train for fitness. You'd need to pay me several 1000s of $$ to convince me to hold on to my best possible DPS at all costs. Way too hard on shoulders. And it requires way too much maintenance.
Hmmm... How and when do you decide which gear to take? (Your times from another world than mine but I can imagine the times not how to swim in that way.) Or works it alone without decision? (I'm sure, when not focusing on something - at least hurrying up to the bell - SR would go down and SPL up...)

And a barrier that keeps me away a little: Slow SRs and minor SPLs do feel soooooo goood.... cheated or not....

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner

CharlesCouturier 11-20-2014 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 49432)
Wow, to us inexperienced beginners this sounds like heresy!

First, I'm sorry. I should have been more cautious in making this post. I'm a bit short in time these days and tend to hit reply faster than I probably should.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 49432)
One small clarification, please; when you say "train for streamlining vs training for fitness", would it be expressed better as "training for DPS vs training for speed". I can't believe you can sacrifice streamlining and still get speed -- surely you are only sacrificing the "illegitimate" or "cheating" portion, as you put it, of the DPS, rather than streamlining per se as you crank up the tempo.

The idea of aiming toward the best possible balance between rate and length is not new, and it's often promoted by Total Immersion coaches. Coach Suzanne didn't miss the opportunity to help me clarify this aspect (seeing that I was probably getting myself into a bad situation lol).

What I meant in my reply by "fitness" (poor word choice I confess), is aerobic fintess in general. Training for speed would be different, although it has an indirect (and probably favorable) impact on aerobic fitness (according to "some" scientific literature at least). And obviously, practicing at a speed which is significantly slower than that you could hold for fitness training, may also contribute to fitness. So this is a continuum we agree.

As a coach with most of my clientele, I like to work on the 3 elements: Technique/streamline, Fitness endurance and speed (i.e. sprint).

I reckon that many people don't wake up in the morning thinking "hey I'm going to train fitness today, and technique tomorrow". Most practice swimming as a hobby, and fitness development may not be a priority. However, as you increase the stroke rate, it becomes harder to avoid entering in into the fitness development sphere (whether one sees himself as training for fitness or not).

Stated otherwise, the aim for the best possible distance per stroke is naturally followed by a will to increase the rate whilst holding on to our DPS. This is just natural, again whether we see ourselves as aiming for better swim fitness or not. It's hard to increase the rate aiming for holding our DPS without increasing the pace, or the speed. And as the pace increases, swimming becomes more demanding fitness wise.

What I meant by practicing to get more streamline would as close as I can get to swimming with stroke count (aiming for the lowest count) in mind, regardless of the resulting speed. In this context, there's likely a "glide" phase (whilst being in skate position); a glide phase which will see your forward velocity slowing down between each stroke. This has a negative impact on speed (this is obvious I think), but has a favorable impact on distance per stroke. My take is that this glide phase gets lost as we increase the rate, and it's normal.

Now strictly speaking, yes you loose some streamlining as the pace (and more importantly, the rate) increases. That'd be for 2 main reasons:
1. Lot of drag resistance occurs as a consequence of a lower body which hangs a bit too low in the water. Balance. Pressing some water down especially in the early stage of the pull phase will impair balance. And as you increase the rate, it's very hard to avoid pressing some water down.

2. Lot of drag resistance occurs as a consequence of loosing a bit of body alignment (posture). It's easier, whilst learning the stroke, to keep good body alignment at lower rate.

So I don't mean that increasing the rate occurs at the cost of all of your hydrodynamism, but rather that increasing the rate will come at the cost of "some" of your hydrodynamism (streamlining).

Now if we try to put numbers on this theory, and anyone is more than welcome to share "their" numbers. I mentioned that my lowest DPS when practicing deliberately with this in mind, is probably 12-13, that is, 12 for the first length and 13 for the others. I can not go much over 100m without loosing a stroke though. So we could say that my max DPS given my vessel, given the time I spend swimming (next to none at the mo), is 12. If I train with fitness in mind, I'll go 15 in a good day, but more often 16-17. That I own, it's mine, it holds the road in most training contexts. So we can talk about a delta of 5 strokes between my max DPS and the avg one when training for fitness. Suzanne can probably do 13-14, but would certainly not try a 750m continuous fitness swim at that rate. What would it become. 18? Maybe 19? Again there, about 5 strokes.

Werner mentioned 18 I think, up to 23. Again there we have a 5 strokes delta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 49432)
And when you say "requires way too much maintenance" are you being literal, i.e. does your shoulder break down and require rest, medication or even eventually surgery? Or is the "maintenance" you refer to meaning only committing to the low stroke rate, attention to perfect drag-less mechanics etc., to get the high DPS, which is only possible at these low tempos, which you are unwilling to do when you aim for faster pace?

Yes, much closer to your 2nd description. Racing (noticed that I am upping the pace there, I'm now referring to race pace) at lower spl, or best dps requires more practice. This is not necessarily an issue when you have a lot of time available to swim. However myself as well as most of my clientele are multisports athletes. I got some dudes in a position to qualify for Kona every year if they want. In Spring/Summer, they are on a 2 swim / week diet. For them, holding their CSS pace (ultimate aerobic fitness pace) is easier at higher rate/lower dps. We're not talking huge differences here. I'm thinking of a guy in particular. Can he hold 19? Yes. But holding this dps whilst racing with only 2 practices per week would be almost impossible. If he can hold his target CSS pace at the cost of 2 strokes per lengths, that's what I call fair trade off. Does he have the talent to refine himself even more? Yes. But we choose to avoid this challenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49447)
Hello Charles,

Hello Werner, I'll take some time tonight to read your questions more closely, and comment appropriately. I can not claim having all the answers though. My take on this important topic constantly changes, in accordance with the processes I witness around me. For instance, Puff, a registered member here reacts much better in racing with a DPS/Rate balance which tend to learn toward DPS. 6feet3, about 210pounds I think. Thus far, he's met all his targets using a rate which I find a bit slow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49447)
What DPS/SPL does belong to me? As a TI-believer I'd say my green zone:14.5-18.5SPL. Lets say 20SPLs are right sometimes for some reasons, but what causes the 22-26SPL gap below 1.2s. (Might be of interest. It seems to get down a little in the last days to 1.14-1.10,...

Hmm, I couldn't wait trying a quick but "partial" answer here.

Throughout this endless post, notice that I avoided recommending the SS ramp up test. Not that I had any issues with it so far. But in 2011, I ran a very comprehensive and methodical study on how to gradually increase the rate. In short? The first thing which struck me like a runaway train, is that it takes much much more time than 1min rest "in between" to "master a rate which is problematic". That experiment really changed my view on how to handle this. A lot of time may be required. A full week at best!! The SS ramp up test does an excellent job at telling you what your comfortable and productive rate/dps balance is "today", as of "now". But I wouldn't rely on it for establishing what the ideal rate/balance should be in a near future (as part of a continuous development/improvement). So right there in your question I see that this 1.2 scaring beast is now in the process of being "tamed". I'm not surprised that this didn't happen overnight, and wouldn't be surprise if you required at least 2 weeks, if not a full month, if not more to adapt to a rate which is 2 spm higher, etc... That is what Terry (and other good coaches) refer to neural adaptation. It includes fitness adaptation and neuro-muscular adaptataion.

BTW I'm impressed by your numbers Werner. You must be doing a bunch of things right as it ain't easy to perform 100m in 1:45 @ 15-16spl. If your 15 = my 12 (for example) and that I'm close to the "truth" with a delta of 5spl, then 20 is a DPS that you really own. Believe it or not, some of my good candidates for some day racing as elite are about in this neighborhood. And again, to add a striking perspective to this, Xavier Deharnais, the best distance swimmer I am fortunate to speak with on a reg basis (he's part of our elite team)? He races at 17-18!!!!!!!!! (good for 15:24 over 1500m short course). 5'11 (relatively short for a world class athlete), about 155 pounds. Like most world class, he has a hellova push off / pull out (he pulls out way passed the 5m mark)

CoachSuzanne 11-20-2014 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49447)
Hello Charles,


How to find what's legit? Admiring van Hazel's demo, he swims 34 SPL (LCM) with (nearly) any SR. More to my options: I can swim 16SPL (SCM) with pace 2:15min/100m and with 1:45min/100m. Last I can't do for more than 4 laps once a day. That's extreme uncomfortable. There I tend to let the SPL break down (up) to >20SPL or so, but it's still uncomfortable...

This reminds me of an unintended experiment I did awhile ago. For me 16 SPL is now easily attainable form wise, and is my deafault "tune up" or "cool down" spl. I can go lower as well at will sometimes due to force and other times due to letting rate slow down.

last winter after getting started back on p90x3 fitness routine (message me if you are intersted!) I went to the pool and started swimming without a plan. Immediately I swam 14 SPL with no effort...It felt great and I kept it up swimming a 1:30 100yd (SCY) all at 14SPL. Then I was done. I bonked, I could do no more, I was completely trashed!

The strength I had been building in p90x3 felt great to use, but I had not been implementing that strengt in the pool. Normally a 14 SPL 100 would be on the order of 1:50-1:55, so to do so in 1:30 (faster than my pre-TI PR) meant i was accessing all of the DPS that I owned.

Just interesting how our bodies change over time. There was nothing "right or wrong" babout that experience, but then I was faced with goign to the pool and deliberately giving up SPL to swim at a more sustainable DPS, even for faster times. While I was quite capable of swimmign 14s, 15s or 16s...if I want endurance at any speed faster than a 1:40...I need to give something up. It's an informed tradeoff

haschu33 11-20-2014 09:02 PM

Hi Werner,

I swam very very little for about a year, and visited the forum only a few times... still...

I think I know what you mean, Werner, and I have an idea about it, I don't know if it helps.

When swimming at faster speeds I have to adapt my stroke. At 1.4 you can easily spear, pause a little, then catch, then anchor, then finish the 'pull' with a little snap, get your arm out and start again, and do everything very particular and 'nice'.
At 1.0, or 0.9, or 0.8, or 0.7, this simply doesn't work any more. Maybe not even at 1.2 when you are used to slower rates.
Somehow this never gets mentioned, but I am convinced that the faster the rate is the more you have to shorten the stroke. You can only shorten it at the 'rear end', so no pulling through to the thighs, no accentuated snap, just get your arm out when it is at hip level and bring it swiftly in front. This pulling out early and fast is the handle to adapt to high stroke rates IMHO.
Any little bit of pulling through to the thighs or focusing on 'pull' or grip ruins my stroke immediately and I can feel how I move water backwards and get inefficient.
I can focus on 'anchoring'. But this means only getting a sense of having my 'pulling' arm anchored in the water - for a brief moment and without any sense of moving it backwards. Then it can work.
You can probably calculate how much time is left in a stroke cycle for the pull/anchor phase at a stroke rate of 0.7. It sure is very very little.
The longer the path that your hand travels from catch to the end of the pull/anchor the more likely you have to rush and move water backwards at higher speeds.


With this in mind I once made two consecutive laps of 25m at 0.9 with an SPL of 16. Adding push-off and turn strokes this is roughly 36 seconds for the 50m and a calculated 1:12 for 100m. Regarding my level and the 2bk I used quite fast for me.


I think this might be a typical problem for us TI swimmers. We are so used to a strong focus, clear phases of the stroke movement and so on. Which of course is perfectly ok. But it needs to be changed at higher rates.
My take is: Practice your stroke pattern at slower and more convenient rates, and forget all about it for a while at faster speeds. At faster rates: just go for the feeling. The feeling of rhythm - that is very important. The feeling of ease - equally important. Plus fun, yes, it must be fun! High stroke rates don't work otherwise. Fun brings rhythm and ease.
You can easily forget about your stroke details, just trust that the stroke holds. It does. And when you get inefficient - at least when the soda comes - I am sure a big part of that problem is trying to maintain a 'long' stroke like the one at slower speeds.


Once you get used to faster speeds you can of course get into the focussing game again. Like focus on grip etc.
Of course there is more stuff to it, but for me this is the most important to swim at higher rates.

Hope it helps, otherwise just forget it.



Hang on in there

CharlesCouturier 11-20-2014 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne (Post 49452)
The strength I had been building in p90x3 felt great to use, but I had not been implementing that strengt in the pool. Normally a 14 SPL 100 would be on the order of 1:50-1:55, so to do so in 1:30 (faster than my pre-TI PR) meant i was accessing all of the DPS that I owned.

FWIW, your p90 = my sprints. You better understand now why I would never train a distance person relying solely on typical distance sets. Sprinting, or p90, or any other means of gaining force/power will likely benefit to overall swim performances. So that's "my" big 3 (applied to pool training): Sprint, technique/balance/streamline and distance related fitness (aka CSS). Every component is beneficial for the 2 others. And oh! Dryland acquired strength will not transfer into your swimming, as it is not specific... says who? lol

WFEGb 11-20-2014 09:49 PM

Hello Sclim,

Quote:

Just to understand you clearly, when you become a soda machine etc., and you are losing energy, this is manifested as a marked rise in SPL, right?
Right. For example: Last weeks I mostly swam 1-3ATPs. Way back I go down until my SR gets 3-4Strokes out of my green zone. Today (LCM) with TT 1.3s-41SPL; 1.24s-42SPL; 1.2-42SPL; 1.14s-46SPL.... all felt fairly uncomfortable...

Best regards,
Werner

CharlesCouturier 11-20-2014 09:52 PM

And what were the resulting swim times Werner?

WFEGb 11-20-2014 10:22 PM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

Hmm, I couldn't wait trying a quick but "partial" answer here.
Thankful for all thaughts and posts you put into the forum!

Quote:

Throughout this endless post, notice that I avoided recommending the SS ramp up test. Not that I had any issues with it so far. But in 2011, I ran a very comprehensive and methodical study on how to gradually increase the rate. In short? The first thing which struck me like a runaway train, is that it takes much much more time than 1min rest "in between" to "master a rate which is problematic". That experiment really changed my view on how to handle this. A lot of time may be required. A full week at best!! The SS ramp up test does an excellent job at telling you what your comfortable and productive rate/dps balance is "today", as of "now". But I wouldn't rely on it for establishing what the ideal rate/balance should be in a near future (as part of a continuous development/improvement).
Every day a ramp up test? Beware! Here another question appears: How to deal with day to day form? The variation in green zone will be OK.. for TI. Or take a tune up start and add your advised five strokes? (This sometimes will lead out of the green zone.) And what's moving me always how to deal with this rising zone of discomfort. Just go to threshold or go above as far as I can? Is this still mindful swimming?

Quote:

So right there in your question I see that this 1.2 scaring beast is now in the process of being "tamed". I'm not surprised that this didn't happen overnight, and wouldn't be surprise if you required at least 2 weeks, if not a full month, if not more to adapt to a rate which is 2 spm higher, etc... That is what Terry (and other good coaches) refer to neural adaptation. It includes fitness adaptation and neuro-muscular adaptataion.
I argue, wha you call "taming" is more a result of random. Neuro-muscular adaptation in the right way? Or in imprinting new bad habits?

Quote:

BTW I'm impressed by your numbers Werner. You must be doing a bunch of things right....
Stay honest! At least I hope there is not all bad in my stroke. But exactly that feeling overwhelmes me while swimming at TTs below this (for now?) magic wall 1.2s.

My question in other words: Do I have to deal with that bad, uncomfortable feeling and get used of it, or is there a more comfortable way (in Germany we call it a King's way... in swimming the TI-way?)?

With many thanks and best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 11-20-2014 10:34 PM

Hello Suzanne,

Quote:

This reminds me of an unintended experiment I did awhile ago. For me 16 SPL is now easily attainable form wise, and is my deafault "tune up" or "cool down" spl. I can go lower as well at will sometimes due to force and other times due to letting rate slow down.

last winter after getting started back on p90x3 fitness routine (message me if you are intersted!) I went to the pool and started swimming without a plan. Immediately I swam 14 SPL with no effort...It felt great and I kept it up swimming a 1:30 100yd (SCY) all at 14SPL. Then I was done. I bonked, I could do no more, I was completely trashed!

The strength I had been building in p90x3 felt great to use, but I had not been implementing that strengt in the pool. Normally a 14 SPL 100 would be on the order of 1:50-1:55, so to do so in 1:30 (faster than my pre-TI PR) meant i was accessing all of the DPS that I owned.

Just interesting how our bodies change over time. There was nothing "right or wrong" babout that experience, but then I was faced with goign to the pool and deliberately giving up SPL to swim at a more sustainable DPS, even for faster times. While I was quite capable of swimmign 14s, 15s or 16s...if I want endurance at any speed faster than a 1:40...I need to give something up. It's an informed tradeoff
Have no time for out of pool exercises, but am very interested, what p90x3 is.

Body changes in my years are not always interesting. But I hope there is some room for improvement to the better, not only the doctor's "according to age very well".

How do you decide your tradeoff. (I have to do when want swim faster than 2:00min... and always think after 12 strokes: Shinji's still there and when on the turn: Suzanne's recovered for 20s...)

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner

PS: Your Fast Forward led to all these questions. Although failed many/most of the set's goals it is a highly interesting mixture of TI-like technique training and endurance work (think this part is also TI-proofed).

WFEGb 11-20-2014 10:44 PM

Hello Charles,

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier (Post 49457)
And what were the resulting swim times Werner?

All happened at the end of my first ATP (LCM). First stroke at third beep.

Example: 1.3s-41SPL results in 56s/50m or 1.14s-46SPL results in 55s/50m.

All fairly uncomfortable.

Best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 11-20-2014 11:03 PM

Hello haschu33,

glad to read a new post! Hope you're back in the forum and you got rid of your shoulder impingement. If so, let us meet and video each other next weeks...

Quote:

...I think I know what you mean, Werner, and I have an idea about it, I don't know if it helps...
Sure your post hits exactly the nail's head. As wrote in my other answers, still unsecure if the right cure is found. TI showed us, the FS-stroke is a highly complicated matter. In my very slow SRs I developed a feeling, having at least one more or less tiny aspect under control. And this feeling vanishes at higher SRs completely.

In your post and as we met you said, you often go down or better even start the TT with settings below 1.0s. Think I have to develop the confidence, not everything of the stroke will fall appart with that setting. Don't have time to think about when Swimming. The TT prevents. The doubts come after.

Let us read more of your deep thaughts.

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner

haschu33 11-21-2014 12:16 AM

Hi Werner,

My shoulders are ok, ... still don't have much time for swimming, unfortunately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49458)
TI showed us, the FS-stroke is a highly complicated matter. In my very slow SRs I developed a feeling, having at least one more or less tiny aspect under control. And this feeling vanishes at higher SRs completely.
...

If we do a movement at a fairly slow and 'controlled' speed, everything is quite easy. We can break the movement into parts and analyze every single part of it.
When we speed up that same movement we inevitably loose precision and control. Breaking down the movement in parts now becomes a deadly matter: we loose momentum and rhythm, we might completely lose it. When being slow rhythm is not so important and harder to implement - we can control the movement while it happens. Moving fast is based on rhythm.
But the good point is: while being slow our movement patterns get habituated. Since we do a lot of habituation, that habituation is quite strong and will still work when we move faster - as long as we don't overdo it. Although some neural adaptation is necessary at higher rate - it also needs practice.
What will you do if someone shows you a complicated, fast movement and asks you to repeat it? You will ask that person to do it slowly, you will break it in parts and then habituate it. Only then you can start to do it faster.
That's what we do here. So what happens when we swim at faster rates is this: we feel we lose control but our movements in fact do not lose the pattern - except that it might get a little less sharp and punctuated.
So, based on our strong habituated patterns we can trust our stroke.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49458)
...
My question in other words: Do I have to deal with that bad, uncomfortable feeling and get used of it, or is there a more comfortable way (in Germany we call it a King's way... in swimming the TI-way?)?

I think it is yes and no. You have to deal with it but you don't have to get used to the uncomfortable feeling.
This is exactly my point, and I can base it only on the personal little experience that I have: at faster speeds we first have to find the comfortable, rhythmic, easy and relaxed feeling and then go for the details. The other way round doesn't work. A little mix will probably work well.

Here's a little thinking exercise: Let's say I swim at a rate of 0.9. I will be exhausted and need to recover after 3 or at the most four laps of 25m. That makes 100m max. My fitness level is not very good.
Now, there are folks out there who swim 10k, which is 100 times 100 m. Those folks swim at 0.9 or faster. Now, is the fitness level of those folks 100 times better than mine or even more? Quite sure not. Although hard to measure, their fitness sure is several times better, but not that much, which probably is impossible. Also they don't have heavy loads of muscles on their shoulders. At least not a 100 times more than me.
Which means, it is not the fitness level alone that enables them to swim that distance at that speed, or the muscles they have. There is something else. And that must lie in the way they move. When they move at high rates they obviously use a lot less energy then I do.
So it is a question of swimming technique, but it surely does not have to do with how to catch or grip, at least not at the major part. Because we from TI are not that bad on these points.
Which means it can only be a question of ease, of rhythm and of relaxation.

There we go again.

My personal approach to faster rates is this:
1. Finding a way to fit my stroke into the shorter time pattern (That 'shortening of the stroke' I spoke about).
2. When that works starting to relax. Trying to relax every single muscle that is not really needed.
3. And related to 2: Finding a good rhythm, because rhythm saves a lot of energy.
4. Putting the focus on stroke details and optimize them.

At present I am stuck at 2. and 3.


My 2 cent...

CoachSuzanne 11-21-2014 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haschu33 (Post 49453)
Hi Werner,

I swam very very little for about a year, and visited the forum only a few times... still...

I think I know what you mean, Werner, and I have an idea about it, I don't know if it helps.

When swimming at faster speeds I have to adapt my stroke. At 1.4 you can easily spear, pause a little, then catch, then anchor, then finish the 'pull' with a little snap, get your arm out and start again, and do everything very particular and 'nice'.
At 1.0, or 0.9, or 0.8, or 0.7, this simply doesn't work any more. Maybe not even at 1.2 when you are used to slower rates.
Somehow this never gets mentioned, but I am convinced that the faster the rate is the more you have to shorten the stroke. You can only shorten it at the 'rear end', so no pulling through to the thighs, no accentuated snap, just get your arm out when it is at hip level and bring it swiftly in front. This pulling out early and fast is the handle to adapt to high stroke rates IMHO.

I think us coaches discuss thsi quite often..giving up length and pushing the rate a bit at a time. 1.4 to 1.2 is a big jump not to mention to 1.0, .9, .8 etc.

There are many places you can "give up" length, not just at the rear end. it's easy to let water slip any where you like...but of course only if you've learned how to grip in the first place.

CoachSuzanne 11-21-2014 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49460)
Hello Suzanne,


PS: Your Fast Forward led to all these questions. Although failed many/most of the set's goals it is a highly interesting mixture of TI-like technique training and endurance work (think this part is also TI-proofed).

I'm glad it raised questoins for you. While the "live teaching" part of the course is long since done,at least for 2014 I will go back and review your posts.

There is no such thing as "failure" so I'm curious to see if I can read that in your comments. Hopefully it was clear as I addressed other participants posts that everything is adaptable to the individual.

There's no way I can sit in my living room and tell a dozen or a hundred anonymous swimmers what their goal should be. If the set raised questions then it was a success.

CharlesCouturier 11-21-2014 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 49461)
Hello Charles,



All happened at the end of my first ATP (LCM). First stroke at third beep.

Example: 1.3s-41SPL results in 56s/50m or 1.14s-46SPL results in 55s/50m.

All fairly uncomfortable.

Best regards,
Werner

Ahhh you see? Gimme times, then I can really help.

OK. Here's the deal. Based on everything I read from this case, right now? At the mo? With 55s/50m? You are "at the upper end" of what I would qualify as being the fitness training domain. Why? Because you're faster than what you would believe to be your CSS pace.

Did I read that you once tested an actual 1000 and ended up with 20:30? First this is quite good! Second it is very enlightening. All we're missing is the tempo but at least we have the time. A full kilo is a bit long for a continous CSS Test. I find 600m to be much more reasonible. So yes there's a chance that your true CSS pace (swim 1000m in 19:10 and I give you a Million dollars. If you manage this, it's your CSS pace and boy do you own it... on top of owning a million dollars lol).

So 55sec/50 is 1:50 (or so) for 100m, i.e. slightly above your CSS pace. Now there are several angles from which approaching my previous endless post.

Here. At the mo, swimming 55sec is uncomfortable. This clearly yield a question. Could you make it more comfortable upping the rate (at the exact same speed, something too many people don't get), or would you make it more comfortable slowing down the rate...

If you can almost instantly make it more comfortable by adding a stroke per length or 2 (thus increasing the rate to keep time constant), then your sweet spl/rate balance is closer to what makes swimming this distance at that pace more comfortable. That wouldn't mean you're not allowed to "aim" for becoming equally comfortable at lower rate, if this what you like.

Also. Since you're testing at close to your CSS pace. Well nothing beats swimming a distance which correlates with CSS continuous. Say an estimation of your CSS pace obtained using some formula (CSS or SDI) puts you over 800m in 15min flat, and that in reality using your desired rate/length balance you can not do better than 17min, then there's a chance that you're aiming for too big of a gear. In this context, the natural thing to do would be to retest at slightly lower DPS (higher rate, and higher stroke count). You know? I'm not talking about giving up, but rather to try and get the picture.

But yeah I guess that my most important message here is that wheather you aim for it or not, you're training "in the red zone" at the moment when you do these things. So it's not surprising that "by wanting to retain your DPS", and increasing the rate you hit a wall.

If reaching 1.14 at your target DPS gets you to 1:45/100m (for example), then yeah forget it. You're swimming at such a high pace compared to your CSS (aerobic limit) than it's no surprise you can't retain your DPS.

At some point, and you seem to have reached this point, it's not a technical limitation, it's an overall picture limitation, including fitness.

CharlesCouturier 11-21-2014 03:01 AM

For what it's worth Werner, on top of the above, I might want to share with you my favored approach for developing distance per stroke, or streamlining. My huge compatibility with Total Immersion comes from a true passion for this approach. It's a bit different but in no way incompatible, and far from being mutually exclusive. It's not this or you're wasting your time.

I like to get people to time their swim at a fix stroke rate. No need to count strokes other than if you want to be proactive. I like the 600m as a distance. One of my favorite. But I generally use the 400m too. When I identify a problem, then I cut in smaller chunks.

When time stops improving, it's time to increase the rate. As simple as that. It's fun because you experience a very gradual improvement in your performances, never really stalls. This accounts for one under documented aspect of DPS, that is fractions of a stroke, those dead glides you do before flipping. Sometimes, takes more time to glide than actually adding a stroke. Ask this to the guy that lost the 100m against Phelps at Fly in 2008! In other words, it's not all to count your strokes, if you don't account for the glides. At some point, pace/100m is more influanced by this, stroke count being fairly stable. For example on the clip below, you'll notice I'm stuggling with the glide at 13 spl. Of course I wasn't warmed up nothing. But the first improvement we'd see if I had trained and retested would have been tighter turns.

And when I really have significant issues (with some athletes, and it does happen some times), then I drop off the challenge and really there's no limit as to how much the glide. If body is poorly aligned or off balance, I think it can't hurt to do pure streamline work. Gliding on a rail. See TL's clip below on that. Impressive. This can even be done with no dead spot in the pulling phase. You just take a very smooth and gradual catch.

In fact, this is how I look (unfit, sorry for the pull, if I'm unfit and do these works, I would rather have one.. easier to reach purity) at 1.3 over 100m at this game. That's my best possible effort. That day even at that pace I could reach aerobic fitness pace (1:25/100m). However, at that rate, trust me... 100m was all I could handle that night. I would have came back in about 1:35 should I had try a 200m. So in order to swim this aerobic fitness pace that night over 400m which would have been a reasonable expectation (though a bit challenging), I would have needed to trade 13, a technique/streamline DPS for 16 that I'm sure. Even 15 would have been too much.

If I could draw a set of rules which apply to all and make this whole question simpler I would, but I'm fraid I'm not even half way through understanding all this. Hope I could help you anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQmM0LIuWa8

Again I'm not suggesting counting strokes is bad, in fact it's fun. But sometimes to vary you could throw in a 400-600m continous effort and time it. That could help you setting the records straight as then you're putting more focus on the time dimension, which in itself can help you find your way. You're already training over what you can probably achieve over 600m. So there's no shame in timing yourself.

Here's Terry with one of the most impressive swim expose, posture, dynamically you have to alternate side. While right hand side gets on rail, left hand side finishes a mobile and disturbing motion. If posture on right hand side isn't kept, you loose "a whole lot" of speed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzQc1XadHk

WFEGb 11-21-2014 02:28 PM

Hello haschu33,

have in mind and drop me a line if enough time and interest to take a pooltime together.

Quote:

So, based on our strong habituated patterns we can trust our stroke.
Surely. But when I'm convinced by my own stroke (or a part of it) Terry's Twain quote apperars, or next day shows my arrogance nearly always. Too seldom it's a true step away from a Potbellied pig. (Mindful swimming has made me very humble.)

Quote:

My personal approach to faster rates is this:
1. Finding a way to fit my stroke into the shorter time pattern (That 'shortening of the stroke' I spoke about).
2. When that works starting to relax. Trying to relax every single muscle that is not really needed.
3. And related to 2: Finding a good rhythm, because rhythm saves a lot of energy.
4. Putting the focus on stroke details and optimize them.
Do you have a stepped program for these that you'll share with us?

Quote:

...My 2 cent...
This must be a true valuable very old 2ct coin!

Thank you very much, with best regards,
Werner

haschu33 11-21-2014 02:28 PM

Hi doc,

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne (Post 49466)
I think us coaches discuss thsi quite often..giving up length and pushing the rate a bit at a time. ...

I am still wondering whether this qualifies as solace for us lonely wolves out there... :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne (Post 49466)
There are many places you can "give up" length, not just at the rear end. it's easy to let water slip any where you like...but of course only if you've learned how to grip in the first place.

Would you mind expounding that ?

WFEGb 11-21-2014 02:53 PM

Hello Suzanne,

Quote:

There are many places you can "give up" length, not just at the rear end. it's easy to let water slip any where you like...but of course only if you've learned how to grip in the first place.
Should this become a drill even at lower SRs? Please be so kind and give me some more details if so.

Quote:

I'm glad it raised questoins for you. While the "live teaching" part of the course is long since done,at least for 2014 I will go back and review your posts.
Thank you. But please as planned(?) put this course into an ebook with some video links or a CD included. Sure it will be a huge help for many of mostly alone self teaching swimmers after their first steps in TI! Next year I'll run through it a second time... Once more in group A.

Quote:

There is no such thing as "failure" so I'm curious to see if I can read that in your comments. Hopefully it was clear as I addressed other participants posts that everything is adaptable to the individual...
Possbily the wrong word. It showed very clearly many weak points in my swimming. And never reached the fast, faster, even faster... Goals satisfactorily.

Quote:

...If the set raised questions then it was a success.
Yes it was and still is a success, even for me. Not only in starting a thread but got another new look at my swimming.

Quote:

There's no way I can sit in my living room and tell a dozen or a hundred anonymous swimmers what their goal should be.
It is reassuring for mortals like me, that even you don't find such a way!

BTW I'm aware I jumped in far too late. But for me it's like the (since TI boring) Cooper plans a long time valid basis.

Thank you very much and best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 11-21-2014 03:56 PM

Hello Charles,

long thread with some long Posts; please be generous for the possibly back and forth...

Quote:

Ahhh you see? Gimme times, then I can really help.

OK. Here's the deal. Based on everything I read from this case, right now? At the mo? With 55s/50m? You are "at the upper end" of what I would qualify as being the fitness training domain. Why? Because you're faster than what you would believe to be your CSS pace.
Yes-no... It is faster than my expected CSS pace (2:00min). But I think I can swim this 55s/50m with less efford in a lower SR and little less efford.


Quote:

Did I read that you once tested an actual 1000 and ended up with 20:30? First this is quite good!
Let's stay in your absolute terms: Many other work to do if you can not swim 100m below 2min easily.

It feels not so easy. But if swimming with a TT I can shave half a minute.. also not easily...

Quote:

Second it is very enlightening. All we're missing is the tempo but at least we have the time. A full kilo is a bit long for a continous CSS Test.
(Goethes last words: More light!) It was a timetrial just to look at the 1000m time. (Swam 1500m in 30min (SCM) 18 months ago - with TT. Not there now. And Twain or not, I'm sure my stroke improved... to the better...)

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I find 600m to be much more reasonible. So yes there's a chance that your true CSS pace (swim 1000m in 19:10 and I give you a Million dollars. If you manage this, it's your CSS pace and boy do you own it... on top of owning a million dollars lol).
LOL too! You're coward at the secure side!


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...Here. At the mo, swimming 55sec is uncomfortable. This clearly yield a question. Could you make it more comfortable upping the rate (at the exact same speed, something too many people don't get), or would you make it more comfortable slowing down the rate...
As above I think this might be. I'll give it a try next week. (The 1.3s was 1s faster...)

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If you can almost instantly make it more comfortable by adding a stroke per length or 2 (thus increasing the rate to keep time constant), then your sweet spl/rate balance is closer to what makes swimming this distance at that pace more comfortable. That wouldn't mean you're not allowed to "aim" for becoming equally comfortable at lower rate, if this what you like.
Yes this I'd like very much. But it will feel better if I have a decision how to do it and over all know, what I'm able to do in which way.

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Also. Since you're testing at close to your CSS pace. Well nothing beats swimming a distance which correlates with CSS continuous. Say an estimation of your CSS pace obtained using some formula (CSS or SDI) puts you over 800m in 15min flat, and that in reality using your desired rate/length balance you can not do better than 17min, then there's a chance that you're aiming for too big of a gear. In this context, the natural thing to do would be to retest at slightly lower DPS (higher rate, and higher stroke count). You know? I'm not talking about giving up, but rather to try and get the picture.
Yes-but... Another variable appears. Without TT and counting strokes my feeling for pace gets nearly lost. Coupled to SR especially there are some stroke parts I can vary. More or less hip nudge, more or less rotation, more forward or more deeper spear, more or less shoulder shrugg applying force sooner or later. All this has an effect in more or less effort and SR and SPL. But all these are not exactly reproducable at all SRs (even not in my comfort zone.) So I can't decide what's better or bad for optimized strokes over all.[/quote]

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But yeah I guess that my most important message here is that wheather you aim for it or not, you're training "in the red zone" at the moment when you do these things. So it's not surprising that "by wanting to retain your DPS", and increasing the rate you hit a wall.
...another brick in the wall? Or "If I had a Hammer..." (May be you're too young for these hits... But how to break it down or dig a tunnel?)

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If reaching 1.14 at your target DPS gets you to 1:45/100m (for example), then yeah forget it. You're swimming at such a high pace compared to your CSS (aerobic limit) than it's no surprise you can't retain your DPS.

At some point, and you seem to have reached this point, it's not a technical limitation, it's an overall picture limitation, including fitness.
So, what's your recommendation how to shape my ATPs, if I were one of your course members. (I'm aware the hurdles to get in might be too high...)

Thanks and best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 11-21-2014 04:57 PM

Hello Charles,

second follow up with some remarks and questions...

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For what it's worth Werner, on top of the above, I might want to share with you my favored approach for developing distance per stroke, or streamlining. My huge compatibility with Total Immersion comes from a true passion for this approach. It's a bit different but in no way incompatible, and far from being mutually exclusive. It's not this or you're wasting your time.
Never found a wasted second when reading your posts or trying your hints.

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I like to get people to time their swim at a fix stroke rate.
Does this mean, anyone should swim with TT as often as possible?

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No need to count strokes other than if you want to be proactive. I like the 600m as a distance. One of my favorite. But I generally use the 400m too. When I identify a problem, then I cut in smaller chunks.
What is an identified problem? Getting out breath? Realizing fishtailing in push off? Is a it still a problem when could be repaired at once? I ask, because I can't remember a single lap without identifying a problem.

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When time stops improving, it's time to increase the rate. As simple as that. It's fun because you experience a very gradual improvement in your performances, never really stalls.
Does it mean, you cut the SR (time) down? In what parts and steps do you do it? For example: Every 4 laps 0.02s? Not sure if I understood your "improving time" right...

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This accounts for one under documented aspect of DPS, that is fractions of a stroke, those dead glides you do before flipping. Sometimes, takes more time to glide than actually adding a stroke. Ask this to the guy that lost the 100m against Phelps at Fly in 2008! In other words, it's not all to count your strokes, if you don't account for the glides. At some point, pace/100m is more influanced by this, stroke count being fairly stable. For example on the clip below, you'll notice I'm stuggling with the glide at 13 spl. Of course I wasn't warmed up nothing. But the first improvement we'd see if I had trained and retested would have been tighter turns.
Hope you'll do some work on it further on and let us participate.

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And when I really have significant issues (with some athletes, and it does happen some times), then I drop off the challenge and really there's no limit as to how much the glide. If body is poorly aligned or off balance, I think it can't hurt to do pure streamline work. Gliding on a rail. See TL's clip below on that. Impressive. This can even be done with no dead spot in the pulling phase. You just take a very smooth and gradual catch.
... and this with any chosen SR.... GRRMPFH...

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In fact, this is how I look (unfit, sorry for the pull, if I'm unfit and do these works, I would rather have one.. easier to reach purity) at 1.3 over 100m at this game. That's my best possible effort. That day even at that pace I could reach aerobic fitness pace (1:25/100m). However, at that rate, trust me... 100m was all I could handle that night. I would have came back in about 1:35 should I had try a 200m. So in order to swim this aerobic fitness pace that night over 400m which would have been a reasonable expectation (though a bit challenging), I would have needed to trade 13, a technique/streamline DPS for 16 that I'm sure. Even 15 would have been too much.
Think many of the forum members would be glad to swim your unfit way as best possible at highest fitness state....

Thank you very much and with best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 11-22-2014 07:54 AM

Another way of working on your grip is swimming in extreme slowmotion.
Its more an awareness exercise, a check what your pull is doing to your balance.
Just start from horizontal float. Just float. Zero speed.
Imagine you are floating in an endless nice tropical ocean.
Now from that sense of floting and being supported add the tiniest arm movements to give a mini impuls to move you forward.
The gane is to always feel the floating force. Thats the basics, Like you are lying on a surfboard, only deeper.
When you make small very very slow pulls you can feel how these are disturbing your fragile balance.
Slowly make the movement bigger and bigger, but never loose the basic flotation feeling.
You will find out fast what the movement that is imprinted in your muscle memory does to you balance,
I often discover that I have to position my arm in pretty wierd angles to move forward without disturbing balance.
But if you do this for half an hour and take some of the new learnt movements in slightly faster real swimming, you often swim faster with less effort.
You also can pull the car faster without the line breaking if you are sure you are pulling in the right direction.

Sadly I dont think this game can be played by everyone. If you really have sinky legs and cant float horizintal your have to kick a bit and that can distract so much that you are not able to feel what your pull does to your balance,
I would say add minimal floatation aid at the rear to just being able to get level but thats not really TI approved probably.
A snorkel is also ideal, but not rreally needed because you use so little air you hardly need to breeth.

WFEGb 11-22-2014 12:28 PM

Hello Zenturtle,

your pictures for imagination are really great! (Are you an artist for photographs or paintings?) I don't feel as a sinker, so that will not be a problem.

Some time ago I tested my similar "swimming just before turbulance" appears. It turned out as interesting 16SPLs, the center of my green zone.

But I never tried it for half an hour, just one or two lengths. Have it in my book if have some minutes more pooltime than actual.

What I do like also, it takes a view from the other end (extreme slow SR to look how they'll impact my grip at threshold in the (for me) extreme high SRs.)

Many thanks and best regards,
Werner

CoachSuzanne 11-22-2014 11:00 PM

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Originally Posted by haschu33 (Post 49483)
Hi doc,

Would you mind expounding that ?

Regarding giving up SPL at the front...

Developing a higher catch for me has resulted in less shoulder stress from the perspective of force productoin, but it does require flexibility and mobility in the shoulder joint.

Ie a lever the length of the forearm to the hand is shorter than a lever the length of a partial upper arm sloped to a slightly vertical forearm.

Wherease the latter may allow a less flexible person to grab a good armful of water it may also produce more force per stroke.

The effective high elbow catch is actually a very short lever moved by a more powerful muscle group (the lats) and for me is less stressful on the shoulders...but this assume I hvae the flexibility and to find it.

Another example of slipping force at the front of hte stroke is to simple stroke more slowly at the front until you feel hte grip get stronger, or to *gasp* deliberately let the elbow drop a bit. it does work to decrease force but then I would perhaps opt instead for a lower rate and a slower start to the stroke.


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