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-   -   Best way to get the right kicktiming? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7902)

Zenturtle 04-12-2015 06:14 PM

Best way to get the right kicktiming?
 
I have very little awareness of the kicktiming in my backstroke and cant make sense of the timing.

In freestyle the rotational downkick comes roughly together with the end of the same side push and the other side arm extension.
The rotational downkick is helping rotation to the other side.

A normal backstroke kicktining is the same, only the downkick is now called an upkick.
So, kicking up with the rightside leg goes together with the end of the rightside push and the entry of the left arm .
ONlly difference is, the rightside upkick rotates the body further down on the rightside, at the moment you want to rotate to the left....
Do the rotational kicks have another timing in backistroke compared to freestyle?


Where are the rotational kicks in Lochtes stroke?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fO-VyjieA

A significant part of the end of the armpush is used to help rotation in backstroke. Thats how it feels to me, and looking and the movement of Lochtes arm and hand at the end of the push, a lot of water is pushed down instead of purely backwards.
This downward endpush helps rotation. Agreed?

Compared to freestyle, backstroke works better when adding dynamics to the stroke it seems.
Connecting the end of the push and slingshot the other arm forward at the same time with rotation seems an important ingredient in backstroke. Without speed most of this effect is lost. Agreed?

s.sciame 04-13-2015 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 52476)

A normal backstroke kicktining is the same, only the downkick is now called an upkick.
So, kicking up with the rightside leg goes together with the end of the rightside push and the entry of the left arm .
ONlly difference is, the rightside upkick rotates the body further down on the rightside, at the moment you want to rotate to the left....
Do the rotational kicks have another timing in backistroke compared to freestyle?

Hi ZT, this theme has always puzzled me, I try to give my point of view: the way I see it is that this freestyle-like-pattern (right kick-left entry, left kick-right entry) is actually implemented only by Ryosuke Irie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

I love his kick (by the way he's also my favourite backstroker) but it seems to me that the majority of backstrokers, including Lochte, do quite the opposite: right kick-right entry, left kick-left entry (with the kick slightly delayed vs the arm entry). This last pattern is coherent with body rotation, Irie's pattern theoretically is against it. IMHO, body rotation in backstroke is driven more by the recovery arm and rhythm and less by the kick, and kicking is more about propulsion, so any kick timing could be fine as long as it is a propulsive kick (but again this is only my personal opinion). It seems to me that kicking often follows body rotation instead of driving it (or at list it aids just the final portion of rotation).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 52476)

A significant part of the end of the armpush is used to help rotation in backstroke. Thats how it feels to me, and looking and the movement of Lochtes arm and hand at the end of the push, a lot of water is pushed down instead of purely backwards.
This downward endpush helps rotation. Agreed?

Yes, at expense of stroke rate (but Lochte's SR is obviously fast anyway). Recently I'm trying to let go of this final push and make an early exit thumb up, to easily increase my SR and following the popular approach that power is at the front of the stroke and not at the back. It's funny because the stroke feels more light and rhythmical, and the speed more constant, but the tradeoff is that the body rotates less and the stroke gets shorter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 52476)
Compared to freestyle, backstroke works better when adding dynamics to the stroke it seems.
Connecting the end of the push and slingshot the other arm forward at the same time with rotation seems an important ingredient in backstroke. Without speed most of this effect is lost. Agreed?

Yes.

Cheers,
Salvo

Zenturtle 04-13-2015 01:21 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

yep, thats a kick I can more are less imagine doing. Here you see a forcefull downkick that acts the same way as a 2BK downkick only done with the back side of the leg instead of the frontside.
Downside seems to be a large downward push from arm and leg at the same time what gives a lot of updown movement next to the rotation.
Its the same lift and fall that can be seem with a lot of 2BK swimmers with too much pulse force in their stroke instead of smooth force.
The guy doesnt look very streamlined. If this isnt a power stroke I dont know what is.
Only for strongman, swimming this way. He is doing it with great rhythm. Can imagine this stroke feels good and powerfull if you have the strenght to keep it going.

I gues the kicktiming setlles with time. Sometimes some kicks fall in place when starting out with a relative fast kick instead of trying to swim in slow motion and consciously thinking about the timing.
Like you said, it happens more when concentrating on armtiming and rotatiing the hips and torso following the recovering arm and pushing with the other arm
No idea what legkick (s) helped rotation.

Anyway I dont think its the same basic (rotational) timing as freestyle although it may look the same.

Some good stuff on underwater dolphin kick that also applies to normal kicking I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afpN9fOGu9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UVIdDWwE14

Zenturtle 04-13-2015 02:03 PM

From above water, the japanese guy is looking great.
Incredibly stable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslxxJU-A5U

Thanks, going to try his kicktiming. Nice and simple. Easier to grasp for adult learners.

This kick makes more sense to me than the normal kick, and cant be that bad judging Roland Matthes results with the same technique:

Roland Matthes (born 17 November 1950) is a retired German swimmer and the most successful backstroke swimmer of all times. Between April 1967 and August 1974 he won all backstroke competitions he entered

Irie doesnt seem to use that much power as it looks like from underwater footage:

Irie initially trained in freestyle, but began swimming the backstroke alone for long periods before and after practice. Backstroke was suitable for Irie because it did not require as much power as freestyle, and soon, Irie began winning national-level competitions and breaking junior high school records.


Actually Lochtes timing is imaginable looking at it from below from 0.30 to 0.45 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CmM_Z3Zt5U
His rotation is helped by a simultanuous up and downkick right at his switch from side to side.
This double effective kick is almost in the horizontal plane.
Now his kick makes sense too. Have to watch this one a lot though to swim along mentally. Its all going a bit fast.

s.sciame 04-13-2015 02:39 PM

Absolutely, so stable - he used to train with a bottle on his head to perfect keeping the head still - and so above the water.

Also worth noting in that video that he sets the 200m world record in spite of relatively short pushoffs, and in spite of being only 1.78m and 62kg (Lochte is 1.88m and 88kg). This guy is so technical to be able to survive among those backstroke giants. He's having a hard time with Lochte because Ryan takes a lot of margin with his long pushoffs and powerful uw dolphin (Phelps' school), but in the stroking 35m little Irie is slightly faster.

Let me know how it goes if you try that kick. I tried it for a while long ago, but with me it didn't make miracles :)

Zenturtle 04-13-2015 03:03 PM

I think Lochtes timing is easiest to get when focussing on the other leg upkick at the very end of the push with the hand.
That way it makes sense rotationwise and helping the recovering arm smashing forward together with bodyrotation.

Until now I tried to kick up with the same side leg at the end of the push,just like freestyle, but that didnt work, so I forgot the legs and focussed on arm action while keeping straight without knowing what the legs where doing.

I like Lochtes underwater footage more. Less updown and less kick amplitude. HIs head is not so stable because he extends so much that his spine bends a bit.

I think rhythm and body tautness are the most important items in backstroke. Without that its very tiring on the arms and shoulders.

Normal kicktiming is pretty good to follow on this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3EY1k9rNXI
Upkick at the same side extension, just after other side push. This upkick goes together with a downkicking other leg.

s.sciame 04-14-2015 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 52487)

I think rhythm and body tautness are the most important items in backstroke. Without that its very tiring on the arms and shoulders.

Me too, so you may like these tips:

http://www.aquaticedge.org/articles/...0Feb.%2009.pdf

Zenturtle 04-19-2015 09:12 AM

I have found that one arm backstroke really teaches the basics of the stroke.
If you dont have straightbody balance, a reasonable kick and good rotation you will go nowhere and you will sink while trying to get the arm over.
Best to start with different effort on left and right arm until one side only makes the movement, but without any force.
Best to slow it down a lot to keep awareness of your basicrelaxed balance.
THe arm recovery is a big disturbance of buoyancy and sinks the legs if you hardly kick, but when you dig deep in the water at the front and pull the water up a bit your front will be pulled down and the legs up to get level again. The accelerated push at he other side helps get the other hand under.
This way it is possible to get to a relaxed 2 beat kick that only enhances rotation.
Only can pull this off for a few strokes but this is certainly feeling very promising. Hips break the surface at every stroke.
its hard to stay focussed. The combination of pull-body tautness and kick is very subtle and its easy to get sloppy with one of the parts.

s.sciame 04-20-2015 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 52602)
I have found that one arm backstroke really teaches the basics of the stroke.
If you dont have straightbody balance, a reasonable kick and good rotation you will go nowhere and you will sink while trying to get the arm over.

Absolutely, I believe one arm drills for backstroke are even more effective than they are for freestyle. The day I'll really commit to improve my backstroke I'll start with a lot of one arm drill and NAD (no arm drill).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 52602)

Hips break the surface at every stroke.

This makes me think that I should pay more attention to how high my hips actually are. I perceive them to be high enough, but since my backstroke is still 30s/100m slower than my freestyle, I must have a major flaw that I cannot find yet (eg hips too low).

One simple test that I'll do in the next swim (don't know why I haven't thought of it yet) is try some backstroke with pull buoy and see if I get dramatically faster.

Thanks for the tips,
Salvo

Richardsk 04-28-2015 07:04 PM

Hi Salvo
A couple of years ago I did quite a lot of backstroke with a pull buoy and found I was much faster than without it. At the time I couldn't swim front crawl with a pull buoy at all. I just wallowed about in the water. Since then I found out how to swim with a pull buoy and found I was also faster on my belly. Recently I have been trying to find the same feeling without a pull buoy and have come close to my best times with the buoy, but have not equalled them. I know that the TI view is that they are not helpful in the long run but it seems to me that they can be useful as a diagnostic tool.

I have been doing some one-arm backstroke recently and find it useful if frustrating. I am sure that the problem with both front and back crawl, in my case at any rate, is longitudinal balance. Fixing it is another question.

Richard

s.sciame 04-29-2015 01:57 PM

Hi Richard,
thanks for your feedback. For the record, I have tried to swim some lengths backstroke with the pull buoy, but I didn't notice any dramatic improvement in speed, I was only slightly faster. So I think balance is not my main problem.

Another funny thing to try (I did it today) is swimming backstroke with an ankle band. I'm already used to swim freestyle with an ankle band and I'm quite comfortable with it (can keep my body balanced and taut without much effort).

What I instead discovered by using the band in backstroke is that my body made a lot of zig zag in every stroke (especially in the 2nd half of the length, when the pushoff effect has vanished), it was far less stable than it is in freestyle. That tells me that maybe what holds me back more in backstroke is that I push water in wrong directions during the catch/pull/push path.


It can be a good drill to do, trying to keep the body as stable as possible.

Cheers,
Salvo

Richardsk 04-29-2015 04:59 PM

Judging by my experience of trying to swim front crawl with an ankle band, I would be apprehensive about trying it with backstroke, However you never know, so I will give it a go.

In front crawl I sometimes fishtail a bit at the beginning of the length, which perhaps is due to a somewhat lopsided push off and first pull, but I think the fishtailing then disappears. I have a very non-propulsive kick and swim freestyle with a small two-beat or sometimes four-beat kick. Backstroke is with a flutter kick and I although I do move without an arm stroke it is very slowly.

I can usually swim faster with the old double arm stroke with breaststroke kick, I have just learnt the German term for it: Rückengleichschlag, and was amused to discover that it it is also known as the Old German Backstroke, because in Britain it is known as the Old English style. I wonder what the other European countries call it?

It is very easy to do and I used to see old people doing it when I was a boy sixty odd years ago, so I didn't really have to learn it.

Zenturtle 08-09-2015 07:00 PM

focal points I am playing with and seem to be important.

-Keeping the body straight Pushing the very upper back a bit round and looking slightly backward seems too work just as good as keeping everything straight and getting a lot of water over the head balance wise.
-get a good left -right half snappy roll
- Thrust the hand in the water pushing through downward and getting first a hand than an arm full of water as fast as possible. Not a single pause from rcovery to entry. The movent keeps going like a big wheel. The wheel is rather heavy , so you only can accelerate it a bit now and then, but the wheel keeps slowly spinning.
-Emd of push =start of connecting with water at the front.
-Timing. Halfway recovery must sync rather precise with transition to push phase
The body starts to sink after the recoveryarm is pointing straight up.
right at that time the push phase should start. Pushing the water down a bit to keep body level.
-fishtailing can be corrected by an outward endpush at the very end, making the whole pull very S like.
Not the most efficient perhaps, but without much kick it keeps the body tracking straight.

some interesting stuff about different styles
http://russellpayne.org/2011/10/13/b...ng-or-rolling/

Aquatic posture and kicktiming are totally opposite compared to freestyle for me.
Freestyle feels horrible after much backstroke. Takes 50 m to get it dialed in again.
Things learned from backstroke that can be applied in freestyle:
-Loading of the underwater part with the weight of the above water part dynamic or static, depending on strokerate.
-smoothness and relaxation in movement to extract every bit of traction on the water during the stroke
-staying long, level and rotating around a straight line.

Richardsk 08-10-2015 06:21 AM

Hello Zenturtle

An interesting post. I liked the link, which I will study carefully. Recently most of my attention has been devoted to watching the FINA World Championships in Kazan.

As far as backstroke technique goes, the main things I think I need to improve are the kick, especially the underwater kick and the holding of water . It seems that a rather straight arm suits me best.

I am hoping to swim in the European Masters Championships in London next year, so I need to add a bit of speed. ;-)

descending 08-14-2015 10:15 PM

Not sure how you were taught back, but most good swim coaches are going to have you learn how to nail body position and kick b/f they add in arm action. Trying to add kick timing to the arm stroke is really tough I'm not sure I could coordinate it and swim backstroke that way. The more I think about it I venture to guess I'd be lost if I tried to swim back with arm action as the focus and then add in intricate kick timing. I think this is one reason so many adults find a 6 beat kick so difficult with freestyle. They build their stroke backwards with arm action first and then try to add leg action by fitting them into the stroke cycle.

This drill is so old I was doing it in the 70's and it hasn't changed one bit! If you use the kick to power rotation the shoulder and subsequent arm action will just happen and it becomes just like freestyle in that it's a recovery stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKl8b8NYSg

There is a reason you don't see people emulating Ryosuke and his kick technique. He is a 1 in a million with total perfection of his body position and stroke timing grabbing enormous amounts of water. Quite simply he is a freak that can get away with it.

fooboo 08-15-2015 03:19 AM

That premature backstroke 2bk puzzles me too. Seems I changed
something and now I could not kick as I did previously.

At the moment I think I'm too high in the water. So high that legs
are almost out of the water. Further, I cannot make analogy to
freestyle 2bk. At crawl I could easily prepare kick and have it
when I want it. In backstroke... just different. From previous times,
when I did not ponder a kick at all and had it properly. I will try
to explain what I do: i.e. on the left side, right shoulder out of the
water. Right arm recovering, rotating to the right side. During
that, left arm makes 90 degrees at elbow and anchors, and makes
final flap.

In freestyle I prepare 2bk. I tense glute and have leg ready to kick.
Now what in backstroke? I'm relaxed on the water, balanced. See
no way to tense and not to break a balance. I have to move leg a
bit down to have a kick up later. Thinking about, every moment
is wrong to kick. How did I do that before?

I will try this out this morning on the lake. Report later.
Best regards all.

Zenturtle 08-19-2015 08:18 AM

Quote:

Not sure how you were taught back, but most good swim coaches are going to have you learn how to nail body position and kick b/f they add in arm action. Trying to add kick timing to the arm stroke is really tough I'm not sure I could coordinate it and swim backstroke that way. The more I think about it I venture to guess I'd be lost if I tried to swim back with arm action as the focus and then add in intricate kick timing. I think this is one reason so many adults find a 6 beat kick so difficult with freestyle. They build their stroke backwards with arm action first and then try to add leg action by fitting them into the stroke cycle.

This drill is so old I was doing it in the 70's and it hasn't changed one bit! If you use the kick to power rotation the shoulder and subsequent arm action will just happen and it becomes just like freestyle in that it's a recovery stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKl8b8NYSg

There is a reason you don't see people emulating Ryosuke and his kick technique. He is a 1 in a million with total perfection of his body position and stroke timing grabbing enormous amounts of water. Quite simply he is a freak that can get away with it.
I am not taught, DIY training.
I think you are right that in pronciple its best to start swimming bottom up from a 6 bK with rotational kicks.
Since my kick is crap, but balance good I can get away with little kick.
When starting form balance and using hip and body to rotate at least the main kicks are more or less in place, because rotating the hips automatically happens with a kick supporting that movement.
THats the basic 2BK action.
I have noticed thats not optimal, certainly at lower strokerates.
On the right side, when trying to just get the continuous flutterkick going without much thought and rotating the hips at the same time, the kicks starts to fall in place sometimes.
Its a matter of locking the continous flutterkick rhytm to the 2BK anchor kicks.
It seems at the right side its going to a 6BK. At the left there is still one or 2 kicks missing from a full 6BK.
(The flutterkick has a tendency to stop at the left side when I focus on the anchor kicks)
Sometimes the kick keeps on ticking for a few armstrokes and that is great.
The machine really needs the 6BK to get a nice rhythm it seems.
With very good balance and tight body 2BK is OK ish, but 6BK feels much smoother.
At very high strokerates 2BK could get better, just like in freestyle, but thats no option right now. Taking about 18-20 strokes/25m .
Feeling of traction on the water starts to get better and better.
Start to let the arm slip a bit at the very start of the stroke when getting tired instead of locking the water in right there to not have to haul the body past it because its quite hard on the core to really power through the stroke while keeping the body straigh with minimal fishtailing.
When this sloppiness gets too big its time to take a rest.
Getting/keeping backstroke straight and tight is an insane core workout.

Zenturtle 09-05-2015 04:13 PM

I did a few lenghts with a consistent 6bk but with a slight stutter in the arm stroke.
Concentrating on the kick makes the arms go jerky and concentrating on the leg-hip+armpush/entry makes the legs stutter.
The funny thing is that from the outside I can make it look like a normal stroke with 6Bk if I keep the arm cycling in a relaxed automatic way with little pressure on the arms, without a good leg-hip+armpush/entry drive in the stroke.
So even if it stroke looks superficually sound, it still can lack that powerfull diagional twist through the core.

Thats a thing that can be seen a lot in the pool.
Roughly a good timing between arms and legs, but no real driving connection between them.

It also seems to indicate that the hip-shoulder connection is the most important one.
This can be supported or initiated by the endpush of the stroke combined with the recovery swing on the other side, together with some hipswimg uncomsciously supported with the leg, and/or with a consious legkick followed by regular inbetween kicks to arrive at the next major kick at the right time.
Working on the and instead of the or.

Zenturtle 10-14-2015 10:57 AM

kick action hasnt improved much, the arm action has.
More rotation of the hand on entry to slice in and dig deep to get a bowl of water on the hand and arm fast. Feels like the handpalm is facing the water at entry almost. Catch feels more like a freestyle catch now.
Shoulders at the end of range of motion to get optimal grip at the front with a high elbow idea, but they are stretched at every stroke so thats only becoming easier.
Little less elbow bend and straighter shallower push backwards, but deeper catch.
The shoulders and core are getting stronger and I can really power up and accellerate without much trouble or slippage, keeping the body pretty straight.
More shoulder roll to really get more of the body involved in the propulsion.
Goes along with a bit of body bending like Lochte is doing, but the extra force available offsets the slight drag increase by bringing part of the upperbody forward into the catch, slightly breaking perfect alignment. There is a lot of power laying around te corner with this technique.
Relaxed backstroke is faster than medium effort breaststroke now. Mostly 2BK plus some faint extra kicks.
Have to get more kick going, but also can ingrain upperbody mechanics more so it doesnt start to stutter when focussing on legtiming.

s.sciame 10-15-2015 09:28 AM

Hi ZT,

glad to hear about your progress. I start to believe I'm hopeless at backstroke :) Guess I've tried almost everything but nothing really seems to provide the breakthrough I expect. Why I expect a breakthrough? For me, swimming 100m in 1:30 at fs is easier than swimming 100m in 2:00 at bk. If I relax my pace drops to 2:15. Comparing to fly, which is a stroke I never practice: my easy fly is way faster than my easy bk, I can easily stay under 2:00 on 100m, or I can swim 50m in 50s with a reasonable effort. No way I can hit 50s over 50m at bk, even at max effort.

The things you describe seem fine tunings more than anything. Instead, since you started practicing bk, is there something that you consider a cornerstone, that made you instantly faster once fixed? (eg fix balance and jump from 2:15 to 2:00 effortlessly)

BR,
Salvo

Zenturtle 10-15-2015 03:50 PM

I dont see magical pills that suddenly will make you faster.
I believe in Gerry Rodrigues more and more. Its a simple message, but very true in my experience.
The same in backstroke applies.
nr one priority to get level and straight.
You can do backstroke with litle kicking too, and you can spoil your taut balance with the arm movement too, just like in freestyle.
On top of this taut body (which is pretty hard to hold) you need a big shoulder roll, well connected with the rest of the body.
Dont mind what other say is best. For me, it feels like a big shoulder roll.
Maybe it isnt so big, but it feels like rotating a lot to get the arm in a good position to hold the water and not wrecking the shoulder.
Accelerating through and relative armtiming is also important.
And then its fiddling with arm movement to disturb the vessels forward movement the least, and getting the most traction.
The very basic movement feels very much like the finding freestyle action, only with less body bending and more rotation along the spine.
Sprinting in backstroke without hopping all over the place is still difficult.


Still worthwhile to figure out what is holding you back in backstroke.
I guess it also takes specific strength that has to be developed.
Woman often like backstroke more than man, but armstrokes are mostly very weak and messy causing them to be slow despite good balance.(not talking about fishes here)
They often do get a lot more propulsion from their kick though.
Anyway, it can teach you a lot and is a great shoulder stretch.

I cant do fly.
Dont know if I want to learn it. Afraid of becoming a loper ;-)

s.sciame 10-16-2015 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 55427)

I believe in Gerry Rodrigues more and more.

Absolutely, he's currently my favourite. I remember the first time I read his "don't do" list I smiled and thought this man had to be a Full metal jacket character. However, over time I started to change my mind, what he says sounds definitely reasonable now.

No shortcuts, no secrets, period. I'm a firm believer of this. Actually I wasn't meant to find the backstroke magic pill. I just guess that, in my case, what holds me back at bk has to be a matter of technique more than anything else (at 30s/100m slower than fs I must be applying the brakes somewhere). Anyway, whatever it is, if I still haven't found it, chances are that with practice it'll eventually disappear.
So today I just decided to set a baseline: I set my TT at a slow stroke rate (50SPM, which for me is very slow for fs but right for bk) and swam 100m with my best possible technique and aerobic effort level. Counted steady 22SPL, came in 2:05 with open turns and short pushoffs (I'm not interested in uw dolphin, with flip turns I would be faster but I'm interested in the stroke). That's a rough baseline: in the next sessions I'll just try to swim well (not rushed) and gradually improve SL or SR. No shortcuts, no secrets.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 55427)
The very basic movement feels very much like the finding freestyle action, only with less body bending and more rotation along the spine.

Natalie Coughlin's bk looks like the "finding freestyle" action to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkt31KITQro

Zenturtle 10-16-2015 10:31 PM

exactly.
Without her mega kick I get a good burn in the upper lats at least.
its like a dynamic alternating one arm iron cross.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd1LjYgIm_4
Thats why you need rotation. The upperarm adduction works best in line with the shoulderplane.
And to grab water you need a certain depth too, so its swinging from one side to the other while staying aligned.
So , it takes already 4 years to build some strength according the video.
Natalie Coughlin has spent a lot more time, with the result that she has lats like a light body builder.

Some rotate the upperarm behind the backplane though.

On top of this big movement is the elbow bend, but overdoing it results in a sort dropped elbow for backstroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTADg_Ael-c

Tapping into that big body movement, I understand a bit better where Janet Evans got her speed from.(hopefully)
I believe roughly the same things are going on there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K02I7GFwYuw.
Look at her stroke from the 35 to 40 sec mark and compare with the finding freestyle T armstroke paddle drill.
These folks have a good point there...
From 45 to 50 sec you can see how her kick helps in the stroke to get a complete body driven action from top of feet to opposite shoulder.
She is squeezing all the energy out of this whole body to move her forward. Actually this is looking very fishlike from a propulsion point of view. Fish also use all the muscles to get that undulation.
In my view Janet Evans is swimming very fishlike, although half of that fish is above water
The more I watch it, the more I see the beauty in it..
Her lifting of the head doesnt cost her thats much extra because its already in the basic core action thats happening in that stroke. She only has to push it a bit further on the breathing strokes and stay in the rhythm.
or the young Phelps halfway his development again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjVDftnBq04
If you try to swim like this you notice more pulling with the core, A sort of side crunches going from stroke to stroke.
His current shape has evolved to a more refined streamlined action, but its crucial to learn how to tap into that big movement powersource.
Going here direct or along the route of a more choppy stroke where some stay the rest of their lives?
I dont know whats best.

It doesnt have to be super high rev.
Combined with the relaxed TI recovery you can also get a taste of what that megastrokes 15 stroke/25 min 1 min/100m guys are doing, but there it gets very important to keep the momentum going I think.
At least my normal freestyle strokes tend to get bigger if I try to translate some of that big through the core movement into the freestyle.

Zenturtle 10-18-2015 07:33 AM

Are you still there Salvo?
Are you ready for a shock?

Go stand in front of a mirror and try to mimic Lochtes image on extension.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16...120730,00.html (if its working)
http://nl.images.search.yahoo.com/se...g&action=click

http://nl.images.search.yahoo.com/im...003&hspart=iry

The line of his extended arm lies on the symmetry plane through legs and hips.
His head in line wih the leg.
Serious body bending!

Doesnt really resemble what we are doing in the pool doesnt it?
Stumbled on this body bending thing in the pool and I am 100% sure this is important (very important) to achieve real power in your stroke.
Imagine doing this every stroke.
Big core workout to pull everything in line again during the armstroke and then bend to the to the other side etc.

Aaron Piersol looks just the same in underwaterview. Combination of bending and rotation to reach around the corner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpLr5YwXKKg

I am pretty excited about this bending thing. Never allowed myself to bend much because of streamlining, turning around the axis etc,(stupid overthinker) but it simply gives more power and doesnt seem to influence drag that much.
Now find a way to get some of that power into the freestyle.

s.sciame 10-19-2015 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 55460)
Are you still there Salvo?
Are you ready for a shock?

Go stand in front of a mirror and try to mimic Lochtes image on extension.

http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16...120730,00.html (if its working)
http://nl.images.search.yahoo.com/se...g&action=click

http://nl.images.search.yahoo.com/im...003&hspart=iry

The line of his extended arm lies on the symmetry plane through legs and hips.
His head in line wih the leg.
Serious body bending!

Doesnt really resemble what we are doing in the pool doesnt it?
Stumbled on this body bending thing in the pool and I am 100% sure this is important (very important) to achieve real power in your stroke.
Imagine doing this every stroke.
Big core workout to pull everything in line again during the armstroke and then bend to the to the other side etc.

Aaron Piersol looks just the same in underwaterview. Combination of bending and rotation to reach around the corner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpLr5YwXKKg

I am pretty excited about this bending thing. Never allowed myself to bend much because of streamlining, turning around the axis etc,(stupid overthinker) but it simply gives more power and doesnt seem to influence drag that much.
Now find a way to get some of that power into the freestyle.

Hi ZT,
did you already try it at the pool? What's the feedback? Not sure I got it right, but the body bending I see in Lochte and Peirsol seems a long axis break, so basically a flaw or just something that work for them.
Perhaps it doesn't add much drag, but I guess the risk for an avg swimmer could be to press the water in wrong directions and slow down the stroke rate...

Zenturtle 10-19-2015 04:29 PM

Just another piece of the puzzle. The bending wasn as extreme as i thought.
With only rotation you can look almost the same as on the images, but they do bend a bit on top of rotattion.
Its not major and advantage or disadvantage could vary for different people, but its certainly a different movement.
Gives some extra power and reach by using more core action.
Piersols bending body shape doesnt look ideal from underwater, but the optimal drag-propulsion compromise seems to look like this for a certain distance and speed.
Sometimes people also do this in freestyle (bending and overreaching) which is not advised.
Probably its less needed in freestyle compered to backstroke, but I will experiment by adding a little in freestyle too.\
Pulling or holding water with the whole upperbody is easier than only with the arm, thats the basic idea.
Yep, we have diverged from kicking to pulling again. Wrong ,wrong, wrong.;-)

No doubt a little bending is helping me. 1.30 min/100m is not an exeption anymore, but a choice how tired I want to get.
Loads of bending examples:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94xxls5iWdY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SdcvoiCmCfU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeCgy9EL8qY


Woman often stay more aligned. Can get less power out their pull probably.Or because man have less trouble making their own rules?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhzbOBEzYQU
Nice footage of kick timing.

s.sciame 10-26-2015 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 55465)
No doubt a little bending is helping me. 1.30 min/100m is not an exeption anymore, but a choice how tired I want to get.

Very good! Do you use UW dolphin and flip turns? And what were your times when you started swimming bk?
I'm currently at a steady and aerobic (and patient) 2:00/100m at 48-50SPM with flip turns (I know, didn't want to rely on turns but I changed my mind...!) and short pushoffs (no UW). Still have to check if I can hold it for 200s or 400s.
Today, in the cool down, after having patiently applied to some 100s bk I just wanted to put some dust off my butterfly and tried an easy 50 and then an easy 100. Came respectively at 00:50 and 1:52... damn, if only bk was as easy!

Zenturtle 10-26-2015 05:43 PM

best pushoffs possible, open turns, turning to freestyle when nearly at the wall.
Dont know where I started. It takes some time to let the core and the shoulders adapt to this different action.
Espectilly the first part after entry is hard on the shoulders and core and they feel stretched and loaded quite a bit.
Just like tendons it all needs some time to strenghten and adapt. Balance is also different from freestyle. More pushing the upperback down a bit instead of the chest.This is more comfortable than pushing the T.
Its alien to normal land based actions again, just like freestyle, but the rest of the arm action behind the shoulder uses partly the same muscles as used in freestyle.
Its not fast compared to real swimmers offcourse, but its nice to have built a basic movement pattern and dont feel lost and uncomfortable when doing backstroke.
If you spend 10-20% of your time on it everytime you could see some easy early improvements probably.
Benefits for freestyle?
Depends how your freestyle is.
for me the good things I learn from it:
- straightness and core control
- fluid propulsion
- good for the shoulders to stretch out in a different direction.

Once you realise that in your freestyle and have little trainingstime, its not the best time investment to improve freestyle I think.

s.sciame 11-04-2015 08:11 AM

some recent progress with the help of TT and stroke count (ie swimming in a "controlled" way):

- 400m in 8:00 at 48SPM/20SPL (4 beeps for flip turn and shallow pushoff). I did 16 identical lengths: same stroke count, same turns. So this sr/sl combo seems quite steady and, in this fashion, backstroke starts to make some sense to me as a recovery/endurance stroke (for instance I don't think I'd be able to swim 400m in 8:00 at fly today)

- 100m in 1:54 at 50SPM/20SPL (4 beeps for flip turn and shallow pushoff). This took a bit more effort to keep a steady 20SPL, but still a controlled effort

Comparing to when I take it easy (no TT, no stroke count) and my pace drops to 2:15/100m, the difference is basically that the stroke has a too low rate and perhaps becomes quite sloppy. Conversely, by committing to a given stroke rate and stroke count I seem to hold a better posture and a cleaner stroke.

Salvo

Zenturtle 11-04-2015 09:06 PM

I also need some strokerate to find a nice rhythm, flip flopping from left to right.
Adding some paddle and float type core bending technique to move the arms with the core on top of the relative shoulder motion and some extra extension on arm entry made the stroke count drop from 20 to 18 strokes/25 m.
its a strange compromise between core action that rotates and bends and seeking optimal streamline at the same time.
It seems the easy speed gains are gone now, and its more a matter of conditioning to get faster.

Seems you are moving forward Salvo. Stick with it for a while.

This backstroke is indeed an itensive core workout for me.
Did my dryland straight left rightarm 50 windmilling rotations with 11 lb weight in the hand and it was almost a breeze.
Core has become stronger in the last weeks.

fooboo 11-12-2015 06:01 AM

Funny thing about Boomer video. Added just a bit of velocity to
backstroke recovery part and I could do 2bk with no further thin-
kering. That forward moving momentum works with rails under the
water. Rail is an arm in inner rotation and palm facing down. With
slow recovery I hardly could imagine what my legs are doing. Thanks
Boomer!

CoachToddE 03-14-2016 10:23 PM

Interesting discussion you all have had. I looked at the videos of Lochte and Irie and there is a noticeable difference in the amount of rotation each has from the waist down. Lochte is pretty much at 90 deg and Irie is close to 45 deg or a little less. This rotation is what is causing the difference in their kicking. For Lochte the over rotation does not allow for an opposite kick timed with the opposite arm pull. Iris has a good 6 beat kick with the emphasis or power kick coming at the timing of the catch, body rotation and pull. Iris' kick is more like a waltz tempo with a 1,2,3 - 1,2,3 with the 1's being the power kick.

I grew up as mainly a backstroker and IMer due to my back and fly. I don't think I ever gave my kick much thought and not one of my coaches talked to me about it other than kick harder. It wasn't until I learned the 2 beat kick for freestyle 6 years ago that I started to experiment with it in backstroke. I find it easy to use at slow tempos but not at a 50 or 100 pace and switch to more of the traditional 6 beat with emphasis on the 1 kick for each side. Using the 2BK in the slower tempos helped me connect the dots for the emphasis kicks at the faster tempos.

The other interesting thing I discovered was after I started using the Tempo trainer for freestyle I started to play around with it for the other 3 strokes. I found through stroke counting that my backstroke spl was 1-2 higher than my freestyle. What I didn't realize until after I started using the TT was how lazy of a backstroker I was. I first set the TT at my freestyle setting and quickly discovered it was too fast to keep up with and moved it .05 slower. I used the beep for entry and it changed my backstroke to a driven hand entry versus my old lazy entry. I have always had a quick beginning of the recovery just never realized how lazy I was on entry. After a few months moved the tempo back to my freestyle setting and now use the setting. I also use the same setting for breaststroke but divide the stroke in 2 beeps, one for extending to extension and the other beep for brining the hands in under the face and it has sped up by breaststroke as well. The fly was the toughest to figure until recently and am using a setting around .77 - .80 and again a beep for entry and a beep for finish. This also has sped up my hand and timed my kick better for finish and exit.

Very good discussion over the past year.

Zenturtle 05-13-2016 11:24 AM

Guy looks good in my eyes, but at every level. there are things to work on
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQpg0eXRrio

Zenturtle 09-08-2016 09:53 AM

the most logical backstroke kick. An upside down 2Bk (with crossover)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4G7MiNmKPw#t=10.261609

Zenturtle 10-08-2016 10:55 AM

Finally, finally I have got my 6bk sorted in backstroke. Took more than 6 months focus to get it.
Always was placing the main kicks a touch to early. Probably because i was trying to drive all the rotation from the kick with not enough core lock on the main kicks and a timing that was a bit off. When I got accustomed to this early kick I started focussing on the arms more and the kick moved slowly more towards the edges of rotation. giving that aftersweep feeling.

now the 6BK timing is about the same as the asian womans standard kicktiming.
Lochtes kick is even later. Never could imagine how his kicktining worked, but now i have an idea.

2Bk timing is much earlier, on the catch instead of the finish of the stroke, thats why it took so long to get the 6Bk timing sorted, starting from a 2BK timing. Still confusing switching from 2Bk to 6Bk in backstroke.

2Bk timing on catch with afterkick that are timed almost the same as Lochtes main kicks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4G7MiNmKPw#t=10.261609
In fact its a 4Bk with 2 rotational mainkicks instead of one per switch.
standard 6Bk timing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhzbOBEzYQU
Lochtes late kicktiming
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CmM_Z3Zt5U

daveblt 10-31-2016 12:28 AM

I'm not even going to start with 6 beat timing on backstroke . It would probably mess up the stroke I spent so many years to improve .As long as my legs are moving along with my body motion and feel balanced then that's fine with me .

Dave


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