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-   -   What speed would be regarded as average or slow (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=2196)

LennartLarsson 03-25-2011 12:09 AM

Dzhou01, you said "Terry also said that to increase speed by 5%, the drag increases by 25%. So you need to increase your power by at least 25% to overcome the drag. Do you have that 25% more power? If you do, take it out, and you will be 5% faster. If not, you'd better work on balance/streamline to reduce drag. There are people out there who are 50% or 100% more powerful than you, so if they have the same drag as you, it is no surprise they are faster. If you can reduce drag, you will be as fast as them with less power."

Sure, I get you. But swimming fast must be some kind of combination of splendid technique and physical and mental ability. If you and I reach the same time in a race, one of us will surely have a better technique than the other, but that can be compensated by mental and physical ability to stand a race. In the end it is the time shown own the clock that gives the answer. That does not mean that we should do the swim training with a focus on maximal fatigue. Still, a good technique will reduce drag and in the end increase the speed. The medals are given to the top three. There are no extra points for style!

Robedon: We don't swim yards in Europe, but a 1000 meter swim can be anything from 15 to 17 minutes, depending on my focus, concentration and willingness to go hard. I can make 17 minutes with ease, i need to go really hard to reach 15 minutes. If I make my technique better I might go 16 minutes with ease and 14.30 by going hard as i can. You see, it goes hand in hand, but the best potential is in the technique.

/Lennart

terry 03-25-2011 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LennartLarsson (Post 18487)
I agree that their is a difference between individuals, making a 100 meter free in 1.20 more impressive for the 55 year old shorty versus the 25 year old tall guy. Bit still they are both swimming at 1,20.

Lennart (and Roates too)
I think my post was entirely empirical, not theoretical. Please tell me which part you think was theoretical?

And then answer this question: Is 1:20 for 100m Fast, Average or Slow?

TIJoe 03-25-2011 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terry (Post 18509)
Lennart (and Roates too)
I think my post was entirely empirical, not theoretical. Please tell me which part you think was theoretical?

And then answer this question: Is 1:20 for 100m Fast, Average or Slow?

Terry is obviously correct in stating that there is no absolute standard for being fast unless you are a world class swimmer in which case the benchmark you compare to would be the world record.

However, it is also human competitive nature trying to figure out how they stand in comparison with others (especially peers). I know I often wonder how I compare speedwise (in addition to style) with other swimmers in the pool.

Regardless, it is fun to have a basic benchmark so us amatures can have a target to work towards.

I assume we are not talking about the high standard of competitive/elite swimmers. As far as weekend warriors are concerned, 1:20 for 100m is definitely considered fast. In fact, according to swimsmooth website, they classify people who can swim 100m in the rage of 1:30 to 2:10 as intermediate and those who can swim 400m in under 6 minutes (not only less than 1:30 per 100m but you need to keep the form for 400m) as advanced.

Where I swim (public pools in Japan which swimmers on average are probably slower than US or Europe public pool counterparts), most days I don't see a single person that falls into the advanced category. I myself fall right into the middle of the swimsmooth intermediate category after teaching myself TI since last summer. Incidently, I just booked my first TI lesson with TI Japan this coming weekend.

So there you have it. Let the good natured discussion continue ...

CoachKris 03-25-2011 03:20 PM

It all depends on what you are aiming for

If you are aiming for Olympics then this year 55s for 100m is to slow to qualify not mentioning being consider fast ;)

Working as a lifeguard gives me a great opportunity to observe swimmers, and what i can see most often is that distance swimmers are usually being overtaken by other swimmers but other swimmers are dying after 4 lengths of the pool when distance swimmers are simply going further passing them on the wall, witch ones are faster?

there is one more thing i've observed regarding times, vast majority of people cant turn properly, plenty of time and energy can be saved on turning if you do it right - obviously it doesnt applies to open water ;)

jeetkevdo 03-25-2011 05:28 PM

My point of view is that I swim for fitness, so I want to eliminate the rest gained during the push-off. I hope to do a sprint tri, but alas no walls. Each to their own.

quad09 03-25-2011 06:01 PM

To anwswer your question about time
 
Thatchman:

Regardless of all that has been submitted with good intention i'm sure; I find your 4:35 to 4:50 times for 200 meters to be a bit slow. Based on daily observations of good swimmers, if you can get to approx. 20 seconds per 25 meters I think your speed and efficiency are quite good. I write this with all humility because I'm not there either. SPL is important but SR is curcial for quicker times.

Best of luck!!

Richardsk 03-25-2011 06:05 PM

One way you can get an estimate of how you compare with other swimmers is to check the FINA points table for base times.

These are based on the top ten times each year in each discipline, I think, and are updated each year

You can divide your own time by the FINA base time for 1000 points and the lower the number you get the better your time is.

Of course this only works for meters because as far as I know the USA is the only country still swimming yards. We still have some yards pools here but I don't think they are allowed to hold competitions in them. I could be wrong of course.

http://www.fina.org/pool/index.php?o...236&Itemid=297

dobarton 03-25-2011 06:34 PM

Lol!!
 
TIJoe states
"In fact, according to swimsmooth website, they classify people who can swim 100m in the rage of 1:30 to 2:10 as intermediate and those who can swim 400m in under 6 minutes (not only less than 1:30 per 100m but you need to keep the form for 400m) as advanced."

I had to laugh at this one... I don't have too much trouble getting under 1:30 for 100 m (open turn, 25 m pool), but the idea of 6 minutes for 400m is a fantasy... Guess that puts me in the intermediate advanced... or would that be the advanced intermediate, lol!

TIJoe 03-26-2011 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dobarton (Post 18533)
TIJoe states
"In fact, according to swimsmooth website, they classify people who can swim 100m in the rage of 1:30 to 2:10 as intermediate and those who can swim 400m in under 6 minutes (not only less than 1:30 per 100m but you need to keep the form for 400m) as advanced."

I had to laugh at this one... I don't have too much trouble getting under 1:30 for 100 m (open turn, 25 m pool), but the idea of 6 minutes for 400m is a fantasy... Guess that puts me in the intermediate advanced... or would that be the advanced intermediate, lol!

There you go, so long as you are laughing not crying, we are all happy for you! "intermediate advanced or advanced intermediate", that's the whole point isn't it? If you want to be close to 100% scientific, then you can only compare with the same distance with the exact time. But then you have different speed pools, you may even need to distinguish world records with high-tech body suit or no body suit.

I don't think this is a thread that is worth any serious debate as there is obviously no exact answer to it. But the discussion is still fun as it is clear that a lot people are interested in how fast others can swim regardless of age, gender and body type ...

Swim and be happy

terry 03-26-2011 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIJoe (Post 18512)
As far as weekend warriors are concerned, 1:20 for 100m is definitely considered fast. In fact, according to swimsmooth website, they classify people who can swim 100m in the rage of 1:30 to 2:10 as intermediate and those who can swim 400m in under 6 minutes (not only less than 1:30 per 100m but you need to keep the form for 400m) as advanced.

TIJoe has it right. If you're a world-class swimmer, then the WR is an absolute measure of what is 'fast.' The same is true if you're a Masters swimmer. The WR for your age group can safely be considered 'fast.'

But for the overwhelming majority of swimmers in the world - and a considerable majority on this Forum as well - I think of "fast" and "slow" as labels which lack precision and do far more to limit than enable.

That's why - for those of us who do use time as a measure - I advocate the following:
1. Simply measure your swimming with complete objectivity. How many strokes, at what rate, for what distance. Or substitute time for rate -- from which you can infer rate.
2. View those measures - whatever they are at the moment - as information, pure and simple. Putting a label on it tells you nothing about yourself; all it does is compare you with someone else. Focus solely on what you can effect or control.
3. Develop strategies for improving one or another of your own metrics, while striving to keep the others constant.
4. Next practice, decide which metric or quality you'll work on and go to it.

Since few of us are likely to break the WR, there will always be someone faster, so focus on the pleasure of small continuous improvement.


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