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Danny 09-29-2016 04:40 PM

similarities between fly and freestyle

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 60571)
Hello Zenturtle, hello Danny, excuse us novaswimmer...

seems my assumption wasn't totally wrong. Tried it today. It feels easier to ondulate, when the hands are more below body than farther aside. And it feels as if the shoulders are less stressed. When pressing water back it feels as if body going to brake surface is more a side-effect than primary effort... And it is not so far from Betterfly as the two screenshots may show...

Best regards,

PS: But now it should turn back to your thread, novaswimmer....

Hi Werner,

I moved this to another thread so as not to be changing the subject on the S-curve thread.

Perhaps there was a miscommunication between us. What your pictures show is that the swimmer (is that you?) is going in with his arms wide up front. What I was trying to say is that you do not want to be pressing the water with your arms in this position. Instead, you should wait until your arms are in the second position in your pics, because then you can push water back instead of down. So, if I understand you correctly, it seems that we do agree.

This amounts to what in freestyle is referred to as a "patient catch". The S-curve in fly is often referred to as a "keyhole" form because the upper part of the S is wider than in freestyle (due to no rotation) and the bottom part is narrower (for the same reason).

Zenturtle 09-29-2016 06:20 PM

I dont get the rotation part.
in freestyle , when looking from above, the shoulder with goes from narrow-wide-narrow.
When holding the hand at shoulder with while moving backwards, the hand goes also from narrow-wide-narrow.
This causes some s shape for an outside observer, even if the swimmer is pulling straight back at the same edge of the body.
In butterfly there is no rotation , so the S relative to the body is the same as the S for an outside observer.
In butterfly we make an S relative to the body , if we would make the same S in freestyle it would look even more extreme as in butterfly because of the addition of the narrow-wide-narrow on top of the relative to the body butterfly style S path.
In freestyle we do see some S, but less than in butterfly, so we pull much straighter relative to our own body in freestyle than in butterfly.

Danny 09-29-2016 09:26 PM

ZT, I think that this all comes down to the limitations of our shoulder joint. The upper part of the S in freestyle can be smaller because we are rotating at the same time as we are tracing out this part of the S. It you were to do this in fly, without rotating, you would see butterflyers' elbows moving toward the centerline at the top of their stroke. Instead the butterflyer's elbow moves away from the centerline at the top of the stroke. I suppose we could try to invent a new stroke in which the elbows move toward the centerline at the top of the stroke, but then the two hands would start to interfere with each other in the latter part of the stroke, because both are stroking at the same time. So this is my explanation for the differences. Try this in the pool and see what you think :o)

WFEGb 10-01-2016 10:24 AM

Hello Danny and Zenturtle,

no, it's not I in the screenshots. They're taken from the TI's Betterfly Video, very first moments (introduction).

Think I have to give this video some tighter views, and will put some single fly-laps (what I'd call it) into my swimmings, when get them more regular.

Still think in fly you take the S -better the hour glass- conscious. You take both arms full of water (or catch the pilates ball in front of you). When you press the ball back (below Body - more aside than below) it's better to put your hands more to centerline. Then you have to make them wider to catch the next ball in front...

In FS you'll catch the pilates ball in front, (recovery arm reaches over it, and your hand goeses to catch the beatle's bumper in front below...) To hold the ball and press it back your rotated body gives it some hold and your hand doesn't need the strong S (hour glass). The straightened S followed by itself as Stuart pointed out.

Well, metaphores can also be spanned...

Although best regards,

PS: A philosopher once said: The misery in world is the mad are leading the blind (who, when?)

Zenturtle 10-01-2016 12:27 PM

I watched some butterfly underwaters, but I think the difference with freestyle is substantial.
-its symmetric
- up and down movement

because its symmetric you can pull very wide, push water out and in without disturbing ypur straight line.
If you do this with one arm at a time you are pushingthe whole body out of line.

There is a lot of pressing down on the water to help to get the body out the water, hleping the undulation.
Thats bot needed in freestyle.

So some things are the same, and some are not.

Compare that to freestyle:
Much less forces in non-backwatds direxctions. Everything revolves around the central axis with a touch of bounce and undulation.

Danny 10-01-2016 04:52 PM

Hi ZT. I agree that there are substantial obvious differences between butterfly and freestyle. The less obvious things are the substantial similarities.

Yesterday I did some experiments with body dolphin (no arm stroke) in two different positions, first with my arms at my sides and hands at my hips, and second with my arms extended. The undulation is significantly easier with arms extended, which means that (at least in my case) I am using my arms somewhat to facilitate my undulation. That said, the basic principles of energy conservation still hold, and you are working harder without going faster if you aren't pushing water backwards. It may look like the swimmer is pressing water down to get out of the water, but I claim that isn't true. For me, one of the hard things to learn when doing fly is to avoid doing exactly that. Instead you should use a patient catch. This means that you try to get your arms in the position to push water back by moving them into this position while exerting the minimal pressure possible on them, just like in freestyle. I might add that I have no trouble at all getting my head out of the water to breath when I do body dolphin with my arms extended overhead but no stroke, so you really don't need much arm work to do this. The main motion is guided by your hip undulation. The temptation for beginners is also to lift the head out of the water (just like in freestyle) and this also is unnecessary. When your undulation is working properly, the head comes out in an effortless fashion without breaking spinal alignment.

My guiding principle these days when swimming fly is to try to do as much as possible with my body and as little as possible with my arms. This means a lot less stress on my old broken shoulders.

Danny 10-01-2016 04:59 PM

One last comment and that is that using buoyancy and timing to get your head out of the water in fly is critical.

Zenturtle 10-01-2016 09:51 PM

well, I have not learnt butterfly yet, so I cant speak from personal experience.
Just watched the direction of the arms movement when the swimmers exerted force on the water, and that seems to be directed more downward then in freestyle on avarage.
Can you really come so high out of the water without any arm force as in full stroke?

I must say, the single arm butterfly looks very similar to freestyle regarding the arm path.
Indeed, not much pressing down here.

Danny 10-02-2016 01:43 AM

ZT, do any of these help?
The arms come in lesson 2
finally the breathing

Zenturtle 10-02-2016 07:13 AM

Ha, Ha, swimming lessons.

yeah , I have seen the Shaw video before.
Love how the woman does her butterfly.
That video makes me want to learn it.
Next year its time for butterfly!

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