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Mike from NS 11-10-2017 07:18 PM

A test of Balance
 
If I remember correctly, isn't one test of balance to see how few push offs it takes to cross 25 meters? I recall reading we (TI disciples) strive to reach the other side with 4 push offs from the bottom of a shallow pool. Is this the magic number? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Generally I need just one more having almost reached the wall but about 15 feet short. Today I was about 5 feet away on the first attempt; but with the second attempt I made the trip with 4 push offs. Been a while since I've tried this. Kind of a landmark type of day.

I find it amazing how many more of Terry's bits of advice I'm recalling these days. Forever missed and never to be forgotten.

Mike

efdoucette 11-11-2017 11:04 AM

Hey Mike, I think you are right, I think I saw Terry demonstrate in a 20M pool and suggested it could be done in 3 push offs.

Good for you to be able to do this, it takes balance but also a good focus, I can't focus that long but I do balance drills every swim.

Also happy to see you are still on the journey, me too, it will soon be 8 years, progression is slow but I consider myself a swimmer now and that's ... big.

My goal is still 1km continuous, maybe a pipe dream but I regularly swim 150 continuous before it gets goofy.

Mike from NS 11-12-2017 11:22 AM

Hi Eric,
Yes quite the journey isn't it. I feel you are more dedicated to it that I am; but like you, I too feel that I can swim finally. (Without Terry and TI it would never have happened for me.) Now just need to continually fine tune many aspects of it. I still have to work on being flatter in the water. Years back, Shinji suggested using a pull buoy to train my brain as to what it should feel like to have the legs up. Must do more if this. This should help with few as possible push offs to cross the pool. I still get into the Canada Games Center on most Friday mornings and the crowd has been tolerable. Long drive for you that early in the morning, however. Right? Their training pool is shallow enough to practice push offs from the bottom. Hope to see you at the Bedford pool next summer sometime. Saturday and Sunday noon to 1:30 are the best times for lots of space. Thanks for your comment ... swim well ! That 1km is within reach and always getting closer.
Mike

novaswimmer 11-12-2017 01:22 PM

The push-off thing might be a good exercise, but I wouldn't get too discouraged if you don't meet a 'standard', since our bodies are all different. I am terrible at this push-off thing due to my extreme forwardly-positioned center of buoyancy. My legs sink quickly! Sinking legs cause drag, which prevents forward progress. I have not been able to overcome this (in a superman glide) by any special attention to posture.

I would think your mileage may vary also, depending on how deep the pool water is. If more shallow, say 3.5', you'll get more of a push with your legs and more velocity, therefore longer glide. If the water is deeper, say 4.5', you'll not have as much traction on the bottom to push with, so your glide will be less.

But I can still swim. Learning full stroke requires innumerable adjustments (by arms, kicking, etc) to attain horizontal position in the water...and gets even more complicated when incorporating breathing.

Grant 11-13-2017 02:54 AM

[quote=novaswimmer;63861]
I would think your mileage may vary also, depending on how deep the pool water is. If more shallow, say 3.5', you'll get more of a push with your legs and more velocity, therefore longer glide. If the water is deeper, say 4.5', you'll not have as much traction on the bottom to push with, so your glide will be less.

I think the assumption is that when one pushes off from the side when in the pool is that the feet push off from the side and not the bottom. Thus it does not matter how deep the pool is.
How high on the wall the push off is can be played with and the spot can become standardised.
Enjoy

novaswimmer 11-13-2017 01:31 PM

[quote=Grant;63865]
Quote:

Originally Posted by novaswimmer (Post 63861)
I would think your mileage may vary also, depending on how deep the pool water is. If more shallow, say 3.5', you'll get more of a push with your legs and more velocity, therefore longer glide. If the water is deeper, say 4.5', you'll not have as much traction on the bottom to push with, so your glide will be less.

I think the assumption is that when one pushes off from the side when in the pool is that the feet push off from the side and not the bottom. Thus it does not matter how deep the pool is.
How high on the wall the push off is can be played with and the spot can become standardised.
Enjoy

Yes, the initial push-off can be from the side, but any subsequent push-offs will be from the bottom, unless you are able to glide the entire length of the pool.

Mike from NS 11-13-2017 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novaswimmer (Post 63861)
The push-off thing might be a good exercise, but I wouldn't get too discouraged if you don't meet a 'standard', since our bodies are all different. I am terrible at this push-off thing due to my extreme forwardly-positioned center of buoyancy. My legs sink quickly! Sinking legs cause drag, which prevents forward progress. I have not been able to overcome this (in a superman glide) by any special attention to posture.

I would think your mileage may vary also, depending on how deep the pool water is. If more shallow, say 3.5', you'll get more of a push with your legs and more velocity, therefore longer glide. If the water is deeper, say 4.5', you'll not have as much traction on the bottom to push with, so your glide will be less.

But I can still swim. Learning full stroke requires innumerable adjustments (by arms, kicking, etc) to attain horizontal position in the water...and gets even more complicated when incorporating breathing.

I agree that various body types would all have different results with this exercise. But the "thing" is to train ourselves to be as balanced as possible and also as flat as possible in the water. I think this is the best application of practice with the pull buoy..... to train the legs to be up higher. I too have legs that like to sink and for this reason I should be training them with the pull buoy during Superman Glides. I have been practicing vertical kicking more recently in hopes to kick more efficiently and with the goal of no knee bending. It is working! All in practice to become more efficient. But as a benchmark, my reaching the other end with 4 push offs (one from the wall and 3 from the pool bottom) was a sign of some improvement. I'll gladly accept any signs of improvement.

The pool I used for this is a 25M, 3 lane "training pool" which is shallow enough for this exercise. The competition pool goes from about 4 feet at the shallow end to 12 feet at the far end beneath the diving boards. Best efforts there are to give one push off the wall and one just before the slope become too great to reach.

Grant, I have friends from here (Bridgewater) who arrived in Rossland last week, for their winter skiing .... and they say the snow hasn't stopped yet. They are thrilled and expect another great winter in BC at Red Mountain (which doesn't open for a few weeks yet ).

Mike

novaswimmer 11-13-2017 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike from NS (Post 63873)
I agree that various body types would all have different results with this exercise. But the "thing" is to train ourselves to be as balanced as possible and also as flat as possible in the water. I think this is the best application of practice with the pull buoy..... to train the legs to be up higher. I too have legs that like to sink and for this reason I should be training them with the pull buoy during Superman Glides. I have been practicing vertical kicking more recently in hopes to kick more efficiently and with the goal of no knee bending. It is working! All in practice to become more efficient. But as a benchmark, my reaching the other end with 4 push offs (one from the wall and 3 from the pool bottom) was a sign of some improvement. I'll gladly accept any signs of improvement.

Mike, I do not understand how using a pool buoy can 'train' the legs to be up higher. I can understand that when using a pool buoy, you will get a good sense of what it feels like when the legs are higher, but your body is not really learning how to get the legs up higher while you use the crutch. I've seen some people use the pool buoy to concentrate on upper body technique and the pull. I suppose that can be useful.

I like the idea of the vertical kicking practice. For me, I think my kick would be more effective if my ankles weren't so stiff. At my age, I'm not sure I will be able to improve on that.

Mike from NS 11-13-2017 07:24 PM

Hi there novaswimmer.

in clarification of what I meant in "training" the legs ...... not training the legs but training the brain with training the legs in mind

In reply to a question from Bob W back on July 31 2009.

I offered this which includes what Shinji suggested to me: Old 08-12-2009
Mike from NS Mike from NS is online now
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Mike from NS
Default My take on the pull-buoy... right or wrong ...
The pull-buoy is a tool which can be used to aide the learning experience of showing what the longitudinal balance might feel like. Last December Shinji replied to a question I asked which showed him I wasn't balanced very well. Probably not balanced at all. He suggested doing several push offs from the wall with a pull-buoy between my legs and to sense the lifted legs and hips this extra flotation brought. The exercise was to learn what balance felt like so that I would have a mental target for which to aim. The feeling was amazing and like Nicodemus, laterally I was like a rolling log. Soon got over that however, with repetitions.

With this knowledge of what balance felt like the next move was to Superman Glide and learning to replicate the balanced feeling. I was told recently that my balance is much better and also told that I'm very close to horizontal. I just have to get that breathing right.....

But Bob, I just used the pull-buoy for gliding (no kicking) - which was a lot of fun.

Mike
Edit/Delete Message



So novaswimmer, this is what I meant in "training the legs" with a pull buoy.

Hope this helps,
Mike

Grant 11-13-2017 08:16 PM

[quote=novaswimmer;63871]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant (Post 63865)

Yes, the initial push-off can be from the side, but any subsequent push-offs will be from the bottom, unless you are able to glide the entire length of the pool.

My apologies. I was assuming the swimmer was swimming the full length after the glide was over.


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