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-   -   TI MUSCLES: Which Ones are needed? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1057)

Alex-SG 12-26-2009 06:08 PM

TI MUSCLES: Which Ones are needed?
 
Which muscles contribute the most to the TI Stroke?
Which ones on the other hand are not really needed or even counter-productive to develop?


My Guess, in order of importance and on a scale of 1->5...

IMPORTANT MUSCLES:
1. Core (Abdominals) - 5
2. Back - 4
3. Chest - 4
4. Triceps - 3

NOT IMPORTANT:
1. Legs - 1
2. Shoulders (deltoids) - 2
3. Forearms - 2
4. Biceps - 2

As I go the GYM I wonder what to work on specifically to help me swim a MILE in the TI way...

What do you think? Thanks. ALEX

dwag4life 12-27-2009 01:39 AM

Alex,
I don't know about you, but I really cannot stand doing a regular workout at the gym. I guess that's why I don't do it and have always been a runner until an injury forced me to swim and then I found TI. I know in the book Terry mentions the core and even the glutes. And that 80% is about being efficient and not conditioning. If you can't get to the pool as easily as going to the gym, I would think that drills and mindful swimming would be more productive, but maybe that's just me cause I would much rather be in the water. I've only been doing TI for about three months and I have a runners build with zero upper body strength and can get through a mile easily and can go two, but that's my limit. I attribute this to working on efficiency and comfort in the water rather than strength. Good luck with your swimming.

Brogan

Rhoda 12-27-2009 01:36 PM

While going to the gym is good for general overall fitness, you don't need to do it to swim a mile. You don't actually have to be all that fit to swim a mile - I wasn't, the first time I did it, and I hadn't even discovered T.I. yet. What I did have going for me at that time was that I felt relaxed and confident in water, however clumsy a swimmer I was.
Working on the drills and working them into your swimming will have you swimming a mile sooner than you think.

atreides 12-27-2009 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex-SG (Post 8046)
Which muscles contribute the most to the TI Stroke?
Which ones on the other hand are not really needed or even counter-productive to develop?


My Guess, in order of importance and on a scale of 1->5...

IMPORTANT MUSCLES:
1. Core (Abdominals) - 5
2. Back - 4
3. Chest - 4
4. Triceps - 3

NOT IMPORTANT:
1. Legs - 1
2. Shoulders (deltoids) - 2
3. Forearms - 2
4. Biceps - 2

As I go the GYM I wonder what to work on specifically to help me swim a MILE in the TI way...

What do you think? Thanks. ALEX

I run religiously to control my weight. But I think that it works against me because of the bad breathing habits that I have imprinted. I used to lift relatively light weighs (for me but I'm a big guy so maybe they weren't so light) but I am gradually getting away from it because I seem to be doing better at swimming. I would agree the core muscles are really important but would not discount the lats (probably your "back" classification). Swimming has really tightened up my abs but I also get a fair amount of glut workout because something has to move those long legs. My shoulders also get a good workout but that is probably due to poor technique. Once I can imprint better hip drive timing, I think I will take a lot of stress off of my shoulders. After swimming I have noticed an overarching fatigue that ranges from my shoulders to my hips. This probably means I'm not as relaxed as I should be but I'm getting better.

I think that standard weight training is problematic for swimming because it hinders flexibility. Also denser muscles aren't as buoyant and for me it may be harder to relax which is buoyancy killer and an energy waster. For the time being, I'm going to just run and swim. The combination has not resulted in any loss of muscle definitiion that I can detect. In fact I might be a smidgen more "cut" than before. Rather than weight training, I think the time would be better spent working on swimming focal points or (gasp!!!) running. Running burns a lt of calories and if you start off slow you can build to some pretty impressive distances. And remember in that Kevin Costner movie ("the Guardian"), he through the big muscled guy out of the class before they even got started.

Alex-SG 12-27-2009 07:05 PM

BROGAN: RHODA: ATREIDES: Thanks for your suggestions.

You are absolutely right when you say that Drills and working on efficiency are more important than building muscles at the GYM. And the flexibility argument is also true.

In fact let me rephrase my question....

TI basically says that forward motion is a result of 2 things:
1. Minimizing Resistance (balance, streamline position)
2. Propulsive movement (2BK, hip, core rotation, spearing arm, catch, holding the water...)

a. Could it be that by developing some muscles we become better at 1. & 2. ?
b. Are there gym exercises which ultimately help balance?
c. Are there gym exercises that contributes towards spearing with more energy/speed therefore generating more forward motion?

d. Or on the contrary can we just improve 1. & 2. by doing drills in the water (no need to go to the gym)?

For example, is it easier to sustain a streamlined position if abdominals are better developed (I do not know...may be they help keep legs up ???)

Thanks. ALEX

Rhoda 12-29-2009 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex-SG (Post 8069)
[color="RoyalBlue"]...
a. Could it be that by developing some muscles we become better at 1. & 2. ?
b. Are there gym exercises which ultimately help balance?

I've seen pictures of people balancing face-down on an exercise ball in a "superman" pose. If you can manage it, that might contribute to balance.

Quote:

c. Are there gym exercises that contributes towards spearing with more energy/speed therefore generating more forward motion?
One thing you could work on is your catch, using very light stretch tubing or a latex band. You fasten it to something at about knee level, lean forward from the hips holding the tubing/band in one hand, the arm outstretched. Try as much as possible to bring you whole forearm down from the elbow. Repeat with the other arm. I need to emphasize the "very light" part, because the object is not strength/resistance training but improving flexibility and range of motion - and you could screw up your shoulder trying it with too much resistance.
When you get in the water, try to duplicate this, feeling a tension (like a coiled spring or stretched elastic band) as your hand starts catching, which is "snapped" by the other hand entering the water and causing your body to shoot forward over the anchored hand.

Quote:

d. Or on the contrary can we just improve 1. & 2. by doing drills in the water (no need to go to the gym)?
Yes, a lot of it is timing. No amount of strength training is going to give you balance and timing.

Quote:

For example, is it easier to sustain a streamlined position if abdominals are better developed (I do not know...may be they help keep legs up ???)...
Probably... and if you've ever worked on the breaststoke pulling drill, then you know that you also use them to pull your body over your anchored hand.

Alex-SG 01-01-2010 07:21 PM

Thanks Rhoda, I will work on this right away... ALEX

vol 01-15-2010 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex-SG (Post 8046)
IMPORTANT MUSCLES:
1. Core (Abdominals) - 5
2. Back - 4
3. Chest - 4
4. Triceps - 3

NOT IMPORTANT:
1. Legs - 1
2. Shoulders (deltoids) - 2
3. Forearms - 2
4. Biceps - 2

Doesn't the "core" include more than just the abdominals? I thought it include both the upper torso, the lower back and the hips--or the "trunk" and the hips. So the back and chest belong to the core. Am I right or wrong?

Also, I doubt that any muscles developed could be "counter-productive", even if it's not important for swimming?

atreides 01-15-2010 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vol (Post 8496)
Doesn't the "core" include more than just the abdominals? I thought it include both the upper torso, the lower back and the hips--or the "trunk" and the hips. So the back and chest belong to the core. Am I right or wrong?

Also, I doubt that any muscles developed could be "counter-productive", even if it's not important for swimming?

Depends on how its developed. Free weights tend to build bulkier less flexible muscle. Swimming seems to need strong, flexible muscle. Rhoda's point on the using flexible tubing or bands bears out this point. Besides the water provides natural resistance so that quality time spent there will result in muscle development. I knew a women who complained that her shoulders were increasing in size because she was spending a lot of time swimming laps in the pool.

I'm not sure about what the definition of the core is. I tend to think of it is all of the muscles above the pelvis region but below the diaphragmn or chest cavity. So its not just the abdominals but also the muscles in the lower back.
Physical trainers talk about the core as "stabilizers". Since the upper back muscles aid the movement of the arms I'm not sure you would include them. But in swimming, core propulsion comes from shifting the weight of the entire upper body (pelvis to kneck), the swimmers definition of core may be more comprehensive. However, lately I've been getting soreness in my lower back. I say this because I also feel like I'm swimming better. So that might suggest that core drive initiators are in lower I body trunk area I first spoke of.

brian100 04-01-2010 05:43 PM

Interestingly there was an article about enaging ones REAL core muscles. I am trying to find this article (about a year or two ago) from a lady who explained various sets one can do to really engage those core muscles which one needs I/E NOT those muscles that give one the 'washboard " look but the deeper core muscles which one needs to swim well

Anybody know this article?


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