Total Immersion Forums

Total Immersion Forums (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/index.php)
-   Freestyle (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Breathing Question (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8698)

Tom Pamperin 05-26-2016 09:27 PM

Breathing Question
 
A question: I usually have a short beard these days, and sometimes get a slight red spot/abrasion from my chin on the front of my shoulder from turning my head to breathe. Is this a sign of good form, bad form, or is it irrelevant?

It seems to happen much more strongly on my right side, though I do most all of my breathing bilaterally every 3rd stroke. So I suppose it's evidence of asymmetry, at least.

Thoughts? Just curious if I can learn something about my breathing technique from this. It would seem to indicate that I'm NOT lifting my head, based on dryland reps to see how my head has to move for my chin to rub my shoulder that way. But it may also be a sign that I'm keeping my head turned longer than I have to, rather than taking a bite of air and putting my head right back down. In fact, I think I just answered my own question!

Does that seem right? My right side has been my "natural" breathing side, though these days I'm equally comfortable, almost. But it may be a holdover habit from when I used to roll farther to breathe, and glide longer, on that side.

CoachBobM 05-26-2016 10:34 PM

I remember that Terry Laughlin at one time had a beard and decided to shave it off because his beard was rubbing against him when he breathed. So it sounds like a good sign that you're experiencing the same thing, since it suggests that your swimming stroke bears some resemblance to Terry's!


Bob

haradoo 05-27-2016 01:40 PM

I'm not so sure - I used to do this, tuck my chin as I rolled to air, so it brushed my shoulder - I mentioned it to a friend who's a very accomplished (admittedly only OW) swimmer and he suggested consciously avoiding tucking my chin - creates a better bow wave to breath in, less neck muscles, less strain, more natural and means laser never changes - it made things easier for me.
As a caveat I should point out I have a MASSIVE head!

ti97 05-27-2016 02:09 PM

Tom, Right or wrong I getthe 'road rash' also......I first noticed it after Terry's weekend workshop

sclim 05-27-2016 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haradoo (Post 59198)
I'm not so sure - I used to do this, tuck my chin as I rolled to air, so it brushed my shoulder - I mentioned it to a friend who's a very accomplished (admittedly only OW) swimmer and he suggested consciously avoiding tucking my chin - creates a better bow wave to breath in, less neck muscles, less strain, more natural and means laser never changes - it made things easier for me.
As a caveat I should point out I have a MASSIVE head!

Can I please just parse this for correctness? You used to get a shoulder rash, but following your friend's tuning, you changed your neck/head alignment to avoid tucking your chin, and things got easier. Do I understand that not only did you feel less neck strain, but your laser alignment got better, and your bow wave became easier to breathe behind from. And no more rash.

haradoo 05-28-2016 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 59226)
Can I please just parse this for correctness? You used to get a shoulder rash, but following your friend's tuning, you changed your neck/head alignment to avoid tucking your chin, and things got easier. Do I understand that not only did you feel less neck strain, but your laser alignment got better, and your bow wave became easier to breathe behind from. And no more rash.

Yes spot on.
To tuck your chin you have to engage muscle in the neck, to truly rest your head on the water you don't.

Danny 05-28-2016 11:56 AM

well, you're getting some contradictory information here, so I'll throw my experience in. I have a beard but have never experienced this problem. My sense of rotating to breath is that one should try to do as much of it as possible with shoulder rotation and minimize the extra head rotation that is needed in addition. If you're hitting your chin on your shoulder, then you seem to be doing a lot more with the head and a lot less with the shoulders than I do.

There's perhaps a caveat here. If you are racing, you might want to minimize shoulder rotation to up your stroke rate. I'm a creature of comfort and I usually swim at paces that generously allow me time to rotate.

Tom Pamperin 05-28-2016 12:31 PM

Thanks, everyone--

I'll pay some attention to what's happening and see what I learn. I have been focusing on letting my head float supported fully by the water lately anyway, so it'll be interesting to see whether that changes things.

My initial guess is that when I remember to put my face back in the water immediately after my breath, this ought to happen less. It's just a habit on my right side that I don't always do that.

sclim 05-28-2016 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 59236)
well, you're getting some contradictory information here, so I'll throw my experience in. I have a beard but have never experienced this problem. My sense of rotating to breath is that one should try to do as much of it as possible with shoulder rotation and minimize the extra head rotation that is needed in addition. If you're hitting your chin on your shoulder, then you seem to be doing a lot more with the head and a lot less with the shoulders than I do.

There's perhaps a caveat here. If you are racing, you might want to minimize shoulder rotation to up your stroke rate. I'm a creature of comfort and I usually swim at paces that generously allow me time to rotate.

Maybe there is less contradiction than it seemed initially, at least from "haradoo."

He has confirmed that he used to get a rash (therefore was rotating his neck acutely to his shoulder to breathe -- like you say not to -- rather than rotating his neck less, and rolling his shoulders more) but now doesn't. His words for how he achieves this no-rash situation is that he avoids "tucking his chin in", so that it doesn't brush his shoulder any more. His way of avoiding tucking in his chin also creates less neck tension and creates a better bow wave (presumably a bigger one, or one more optimally placed or timed) to breathe in.

Unfortunately, it is not clear yet what the new "non-tucking" neck posture looks exactly like, although we know that it works better in so many ways.

But it's possible that he has achieved this by using less neck rotation relative to his thorax and shoulder spine (and, presumably, rolling the body more at the shoulders, so the head and face end up in the same position at the waterline), in which case, there is no contradiction compared to what you do.

The other possibility, as far as I can see, is that he is rotating the neck the same amount, but flexing (by which I would include the component of flexing the head on the neck) it less so the head, particularly the chin, is tipped less towards the shoulder on that side. A clue that this is what he meant is that he says his laser lead alignment is better. But maybe it is a combination of restraint in both these movements, less neck flexion, less neck rotation.

sclim 05-28-2016 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haradoo (Post 59198)
I'm not so sure - I used to do this, tuck my chin as I rolled to air, so it brushed my shoulder - I mentioned it to a friend who's a very accomplished (admittedly only OW) swimmer and he suggested consciously avoiding tucking my chin - creates a better bow wave to breath in, less neck muscles, less strain, more natural and means laser never changes - it made things easier for me.
As a caveat I should point out I have a MASSIVE head!

Yeah, haradoo, sorry to ask again, but as it turns out when I tried to get into your description of "tucking" or "not tucking" there were at least 2 interpretations that I could see of what you're doing differently.

Are you rotating your neck to your shoulders less (and rotating your shoulders more, or at least timing it better) so your mouth gets to the same level on the waterline in time for breathing?

And/Or are you flexing your head and neck less (or not at all), so that the laser lead line coming out of the top of your skull remains almost parallel with your body axis, maybe even exactly in line with your body axis, extending down within your swim lane to the wall?

ti97 05-28-2016 07:59 PM

if you drill by kicking on one side with an extended lower arm and a trailing upper arm, your beard will contact your outstreached arm whenever you look toward the pool bottom during a beathing cycle....

Danny 05-28-2016 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ti97 (Post 59247)
if you drill by kicking on one side with an extended lower arm and a trailing upper arm, your beard will contact your outstreached arm whenever you look toward the pool bottom during a beathing cycle....

This will happen if you are stacking your shoulders. In normal full stroke you shouldn't be rotating to that extent. But you are making an interesting point. It could be that the rash occurs as you look down (not as you breath) if you over-rotate.

haradoo 05-29-2016 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 59244)
Yeah, haradoo, sorry to ask again, but as it turns out when I tried to get into your description of "tucking" or "not tucking" there were at least 2 interpretations that I could see of what you're doing differently.

Are you rotating your neck to your shoulders less (and rotating your shoulders more, or at least timing it better) so your mouth gets to the same level on the waterline in time for breathing?

And/Or are you flexing your head and neck less (or not at all), so that the laser lead line coming out of the top of your skull remains almost parallel with your body axis, maybe even exactly in line with your body axis, extending down within your swim lane to the wall?

If you go back to the principles of TI, balance and body position, and most particularly, head position, I think the chin rubbing the shoulder (unless in a drill) indicates a poor position, both from the point of view that if you're rubbing it on the shoulder as you breath then your head has to be tucked (and therefore isn't taking the simplest most relaxed route to air) and if you're doing it when you're stroking then you're over-rotating.
I was tucking my chin downwards - caused two very common issues - 1. it made me swim less straight and 2. it decreased my bow wave, making breathing (especially on my weaker side) more difficult.

sclim 05-29-2016 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haradoo (Post 59264)
If you go back to the principles of TI, balance and body position, and most particularly, head position, I think the chin rubbing the shoulder (unless in a drill) indicates a poor position, both from the point of view that if you're rubbing it on the shoulder as you breath then your head has to be tucked (and therefore isn't taking the simplest most relaxed route to air) and if you're doing it when you're stroking then you're over-rotating.
I was tucking my chin downwards - caused two very common issues - 1. it made me swim less straight and 2. it decreased my bow wave, making breathing (especially on my weaker side) more difficult.

That's the part I'm not sure I understand exactly. What movement do you mean exactly, when you say "tucking"?

Let's assume you are in your incorrect "tucking" breathing position. Your shoulders are rotated to their full swing towards the breathing side, and your neck is also rotated to its fullest extent to that side, let's assume more or less with your mouth at waterline -- or maybe even above the waterline because of the trough behind the bow-wave -- maybe we should describe it as facing the horizon, or in the plane of the waterline at the horizon.

When you say "tucking your chin downwards" are you moving your head in the direction of the bottom of your chin, keeping the plane of the centre of your head in the same plane in space?

If that is the case, then the laser line from the top of your head will drift from straight forward to the end of the lane to a different position, near or below the bottom of the pool, and to the forward far right hand corner. Is that what you meant by "tucking"?

Tom Pamperin 05-30-2016 12:16 PM

Wow, lots of responses but no definitive answers yet. Thanks, all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haradoo (Post 59264)
I think the chin rubbing the shoulder (unless in a drill) indicates a poor position, both from the point of view that if you're rubbing it on the shoulder as you breath then your head has to be tucked (and therefore isn't taking the simplest most relaxed route to air) and if you're doing it when you're stroking then you're over-rotating.

I'm not sure I agree:

When I stand facing a mirror and extend my right arm up as if at full extension of the stroke (lead arm position), the beard on the right side of my jaw (not chin) brushes the shoulder if I turn my head to the right--even if I keep my head perfectly level, with no tucking. In that position the shoulder is pretty close to the side of my head, so even a slight turning of the head to breathe brings light contact. This contact is even more likely when I get a strong, full extension of the arm.

I don't think it's evidence of over-rotating either, because as I raise my arm facing the mirror, my body is almost completely flat, with no rotation.

I think for me the most likely answer is that it may happen with a delayed return to face-down position after taking a breath. If that's so, I should be able to eliminate it by turning my head back face-down immediately after each breath, which would probably be a good habit to get into anyway.

But after checking in the mirror, I think it also indicates a good head position with no lifting as I breathe. Also, the anecdotal report that Terry had the same thing happen makes me think it just be a result of good form for some people depending on individual body geometry.

haradoo 05-30-2016 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 59271)
Wow, lots of responses but no definitive answers yet. Thanks, all.



I'm not sure I agree:

When I stand facing a mirror and extend my right arm up as if at full extension of the stroke (lead arm position), the beard on the right side of my jaw (not chin) brushes the shoulder if I turn my head to the right--even if I keep my head perfectly level, with no tucking. In that position the shoulder is pretty close to the side of my head, so even a slight turning of the head to breathe brings light contact. This contact is even more likely when I get a strong, full extension of the arm

I don't think it's evidence of over-rotating either, because as I raise my arm facing the mirror, my body is almost completely flat, with no rotation.

I think for me the most likely answer is that it may happen with a delayed return to face-down position after taking a breath. If that's so, I should be able to eliminate it by turning my head back face-down immediately after each breath, which would probably be a good habit to get into anyway.

But after checking in the mirror, I think it also indicates a good head position with no lifting as I breathe. Also, the anecdotal report that Terry had the same thing happen makes me think it just be a result of good form for some people depending on individual body geometry.

I know what you mean Tom, but - at no point would you have your right arm extended and be breathing to the right, unless in a drill no?

Tom Pamperin 05-30-2016 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haradoo (Post 59273)
I know what you mean Tom, but - at no point would you have your right arm extended and be breathing to the right, unless in a drill no?

I'll watch the next time I swim. I still think it might be happening after the breath, but before I turn my head back down. So I might be delaying the move to return my face to the water after breathing on my right side?

haradoo 05-30-2016 09:45 PM

Ok fair enough - I think you may be right about the delayed breath - another massive breakthrough for me (i have plenty to go!) was learning to be comfortable spending less time breathing - it was more a claustrophobia thing.

ti97 05-31-2016 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 59276)
I'll watch the next time I swim. I still think it might be happening after the breath, but before I turn my head back down. So I might be delaying the move to return my face to the water after breathing on my right side?

remember suzanne or someone mentioning 'admiring their recovery arm' on a breath? the discussion was related to timing as I recall....

Zenturtle 05-31-2016 06:19 PM

watch from 7min 20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anix...77DE2C8EAC3FE4

descending 05-31-2016 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 59289)

Did you listen to the first comment at the very beginning?

"Swimming fast is the best thing you can do for good swimming mechanics". That's where training comes in with frequency."

Also listen from the first words that come b/f that statement. Swimming slow and easy all the time does not fill out the equation of speed. At some point if speed is the goal you gotta get out of the easy mode. There is a lot of great stuff in there that is dead on accurate. 3:50 is the exact reason why a lot of adult swimmers are so slow and never get substantially faster.

sclim 06-01-2016 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 59289)

Haha ZT, coincidentally I already watched this same clip that you referenced on another thread (to do with the 'Early Vertical Forearm, Is Over-emphasised" question, but ironically, I never got a clarification on that) and after watching the part that was relevant to my question, kept on watching and saw the nugget of information at 7:20. For those that didn't click on it to watch at 7:20, Gerry explains that the beard on shoulder rash is a symptom of the swimmer who turns to breathe too late in the arm pull/recovery cycle or breathes on time but delays too long in getting his head back to facing down.

Tom Pamperin 06-01-2016 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 59294)
Haha ZT, coincidentally I already watched this same clip that you referenced on another thread (to do with the 'Early Vertical Forearm, Is Over-emphasised" question, but ironically, I never got a clarification on that) and after watching the part that was relevant to my question, kept on watching and saw the nugget of information at 7:20. For those that didn't click on it to watch at 7:20, Gerry explains that the beard on shoulder rash is a symptom of the swimmer who turns to breathe too late in the arm pull/recovery cycle or breathes on time but delays too long in getting his head back to facing down.

This confirms my suspicions--thanks. However, I notice that if I am really pushing the shoulder forward to get strong extension on the spear, my shoulder actually comes into contact with my beard on the side of my jaw even when my head is down and I'm looking straight ahead in the mirror. So it'll be interesting to see if that's enough to cause some rubbing even after I break my habit of keeping my head turned too long.

descending 06-01-2016 10:59 PM

My goodness those videos from Rodriguez are so full of outstanding information I got a chance to watch the entire library today waiting at the airport. Even though he seems to focus on open water he could translate most of that to Masters pool racing. He addresses the things triathletes rarely want to address and he simplifies the concepts. Also I'm not sure where this quote in on him saying high elbow is overrated. In part 7 he spends a lot of time talking about how to do it and the benefits.

sclim 06-01-2016 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59318)
My goodness those videos from Rodriguez are so full of outstanding information I got a chance to watch the entire library today waiting at the airport. Even though he seems to focus on open water he could translate most of that to Masters pool racing. He addresses the things triathletes rarely want to address and he simplifies the concepts. Also I'm not sure where this quote in on him saying high elbow is overrated. In part 7 he spends a lot of time talking about how to do it and the benefits.

I had this same difficulty. (Although unlike you I only watched that one video, not the whole library -- looks like I should go back and do some browsing!)

descending 06-01-2016 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 59319)
I had this same difficulty. (Although unlike you I only watched that one video, not the whole library -- looks like I should go back and do some browsing!)

He's a big advocate of high elbow catch and even said he saw a reduction in shoulder injuries from the straight arm catch in the 70's. Talks about keeping the upper arm as close to the surface as your ability will allow. Sounds like the same things I hear at practice!

CoachStuartMcDougal 06-02-2016 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59318)
My goodness those videos from Rodriguez are so full of outstanding information I got a chance to watch the entire library today waiting at the airport. Even though he seems to focus on open water he could translate most of that to Masters pool racing. He addresses the things triathletes rarely want to address and he simplifies the concepts. Also I'm not sure where this quote in on him saying high elbow is overrated. In part 7 he spends a lot of time talking about how to do it and the benefits.

I've seen and like Gerry's lectures, but surprisingly he never mentions minimizing drag profile, only maximizing and simplifying propulsive forces. Propulsive forces and drag forces are not mutually exclusive. Fast swimming doesn't mean faster turnover as perception will lead us to believe. Propulsive forces must exceed resistant forces in order to move forward. Is it better to increase power to overcome resistant forces, or decrease resistant forces to move faster? Terry describes this very well in the following presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8YD...1&feature=fvwp

Stuart

Zenturtle 06-02-2016 06:12 AM

He advocates tautness as the most important part of technique.
And that means the same as straight and balanced although he never talks much about balance.
He treats triathletes more or less as non-swimmers and has given up on much propulsion fron their legs.
So its keep them out of the way, make the body as straight and balanced as possible, add some reasonable arm mechanics at higher rates to help the non-legs and train hard.
Its a pragmatic method to get hard working fitt former nonswimmers fast in openwater races on minimal trainingstime.

s.sciame 06-02-2016 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59318)
My goodness those videos from Rodriguez are so full of outstanding information I got a chance to watch the entire library today waiting at the airport. Even though he seems to focus on open water he could translate most of that to Masters pool racing. He addresses the things triathletes rarely want to address and he simplifies the concepts. Also I'm not sure where this quote in on him saying high elbow is overrated. In part 7 he spends a lot of time talking about how to do it and the benefits.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...080467712?mt=2

Episode #7

descending 06-02-2016 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 59326)
Is it better to increase power to overcome resistant forces, or decrease resistant forces to move faster? Terry describes this very well in the following presentation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8YD...1&feature=fvwp

Stuart

If it's someone who is only going to swim a couple of days a week and doesn't want to exert a lot then probably technique. If it's someone who wants to go their absolute fastest that they are capable of then I would take a swimmer who is willing to swim with more intensity with respect to who swims a race faster overall. Take swimmer A and swimmer B never swam a day in their life and B is the Masters swimmer 4 days a week I'd take that one in a race after year 1. The amount of strength and flexibility gained by the fitness will allow B to continue to evolve their technical skills and proficiency over time it's not a fixed game where if they are not a drag bullet on day 1 that's all they get. Plus they are much fitter. I do believe technique is important, but if I had to get coached as a new swimmer knowing what I know now I would tell myself to hold off on trying to fit a cooker cutter mold of technique until my body came up to par with some swim strength and flexibility. The arm mechanics of our new squad swimmers go through huge transformations in that first year and it's not an accident it takes time in the water and fitness to get there. Little by little our new TI guy is finding this out. He's already keeping up with his lane now, significantly faster SR and has gone to a 6 beat kick. Have not paid attention to his arm mechanics, but he was talking with one of the coaches the other day about elbow position and entry point.

I know what I have seen in my little sphere of swim life, but I guess if we could get a look at the cadre of Gerry's swimmers and see the times they are posting that would be the true test of how his methodology works out against the clock. Edit I just went to his tower26 web site and read his history and beliefs in the water. So, I can see you and I will disagree on this one as I am pretty much a cooker cutter of his mantras and approach. No worries not a right or a wrong just a differing set of views. As long as people are in the water having fun that's all I care about!

http://tower26.com/coach-gerry/

These pages of testimonials are pretty powerful that he is doing something right in his training approach, more right than wrong:

http://tower26.com/testimonials/

CoachStuartMcDougal 06-02-2016 02:55 PM

Hi Desc,

Thanks for your feedback. Both Gerry and I are LA Tri Club coaches and have mutual respect, we really have far more in common than what separates us.

I'm curious though of your "TI swimmer". Was she/he self coached through DVD/book only until getting live feedback from one of your coaches on deck?

The question wasn't rhetorical. Both propulsive and resistant forces work and react together for any vessel that moves through water. Propulsive forces must exceed resistant forces in order to move forward - I'm sure we can agree on that. Is it better to increase power to overcome resistant forces, or decrease resistant forces to move faster?

I've swam next to triathletes (many who are good swim friends) that have a stroke rate of 70-75spm, and I at 55-60spm - and both of us going the same speed or velocity. My priority is maintaining the shape of the vessel and getting a good grip/hold on the water, while the triathlete in focusing on the low side (pulling arm) moving water back fast. Both arrive at the same solution (or speed) given the problem. It all comes down to some math that many seem to reject or ignore, math that started with Bill Boomer and Terry notes in his presentation. SPM * SL = Velocity or speed. Like propulsive and resistant forces, stroke rate and stroke length are not mutually exclusive.

Stuart

descending 06-02-2016 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 59337)
Hi Desc,

Thanks for your feedback. Both Gerry and I are LA Tri Club coaches and have mutual respect, we really have far more in common than what separates us.

I'm curious though of your "TI swimmer". Was she/he self coached through DVD/book only until getting live feedback from one of your coaches on deck?

The question wasn't rhetorical. Both propulsive and resistant forces work and react together for any vessel that moves through water. Propulsive forces must exceed resistant forces in order to move forward - I'm sure we can agree on that. Is it better to increase power to overcome resistant forces, or decrease resistant forces to move faster?

I've swam next to triathletes (many who are good swim friends) that have a stroke rate of 70-75spm, and I at 55-60spm - and both of us going the same speed or velocity. My priority is maintaining the shape of the vessel and getting a good grip/hold on the water, while the triathlete in focusing on the low side (pulling arm) moving water back fast. Both arrive at the same solution (or speed) given the problem. It all comes down to some math that many seem to reject or ignore, math that started with Bill Boomer and Terry notes in his presentation. SPM * SL = Velocity or speed. Like propulsive and resistant forces, stroke rate and stroke length are not mutually exclusive.

Stuart

I will have to ask him what his exact material exposure was, but if I understood him from first meeting his old tri coach was a TI proponent who taught that to all the people on the tri-team. Not sure if he went deeper than that on his own.

Well I agree that propulsion has to overcome whatever drag that swimmer presents. Regarding your triathlete compatriots. Have you possibly had a chance to swim next to someone who swims at say 70-75spm who leaves you in the proverbial dust in that group of swimmers you are with? And if so is that person 'doing it wrong?'. From my chair I would say no b/c for many of us it's about touching the wall first. Could that person possibly be faster at a slower stroke rate? Absolutely it's possible. I just know in my own swimming the harder I practice the faster I get! If that changes I might think about trying something else b/c all I'm looking for is steady progress and if I stop getting that then I gotta hit the drawing board. I just know I'm not going to be the guy who walks up to the stud leading lane 1 at practice who races the 200-500 at about 75-80 spm and tell him he needs to rethink his stroke:/ I mean the guy was good enough to go to college for free at a big D1 program so he can't be that bad. Likewise it would be hard to tell the new guy on the squad that by adding a 6 beat and picking up his SR that he's making a mistake, while he has simultaneously become fast enough to start making the send offs.

In a nutshell. It *seems* and perhaps I'm wrong there is so much confusion with applying TI and people not getting faster here on this forum that I question why no one wants to look at what has worked and keeps working for thousands and thousands of Masters swimmers around the world. Show up, swim with some intensity and repeat and get faster. That is what resonated with Gerry's Do's and Don't list: Don't use front quadrant or a catch up stroke. Don't bilateral breathe. Don't forget to incorporate fast swimming in every single workout. Don't have low stroke rates. Swim a good portion high intensity sets. etc. Then I look at the hundreds of testimonials on his page of people saying how they met and blew past their goals seems like he is doing a lot right, but it seems to be in stark contrast to TI in many respects.

Zenturtle 06-02-2016 03:50 PM

A little nerdy correction: its enough for propulsive forces to match resistive forces to move forward.
If they exceed resistive forces you will accelerate.(until the resistive forces are equal to propulsive forces again)

CoachStuartMcDougal 06-02-2016 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59338)
I will have to ask him what his exact material exposure was, but if I understood him from first meeting his old tri coach was a TI proponent who taught that to all the people on the tri-team. Not sure if he went deeper than that on his own.

It would be good to find out if you don't mind. There are a lot of swimmers that have studied TI want to help others that are struggling as they did, but not being trained, often limit their progress. But I don't want to discourage intentions, which are always good. In any case, I'm curious to find out some more detail of your "TI Swimmer" rather than broad statements.

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59338)
Well I agree that propulsion has to overcome whatever drag that swimmer presents. Regarding your triathlete compatriots. Have you possibly had a chance to swim next to someone who swims at say 70-75spm who leaves you in the proverbial dust in that group of swimmers you are with? And if so is that person 'doing it wrong?'. From my chair I would say no b/c for many of us it's about touching the wall first. Could that person possibly be faster at a slower stroke rate? Absolutely it's possible. I just know in my own swimming the harder I practice the faster I get! If that changes I might think about trying something else b/c all I'm looking for is steady progress and if I stop getting that then I gotta hit the drawing board. I just know I'm not going to be the guy who walks up to the stud leading lane 1 at practice who races the 200-500 at about 75-80 spm and tell him he needs to rethink his stroke:/ I mean the guy was good enough to go to college for free at a big D1 program so he can't be that bad. Likewise it would be hard to tell the new guy on the squad that by adding a 6 beat and picking up his SR that he's making a mistake, while he has simultaneously become fast enough to start making the send offs.

Both yes and no. I can certainly pick up turnover and pass the guy at the same rate, but I can't sustain that for a 800m, mile or two. And likewise, one who leaves me in the dust at the beginning typically begins to slow toward the end of the swim. This happened to me at bridge to bridge last year - couldn't hang on to this guys wheelhouse much longer than 5 minutes before he left me, but I finished just ahead of him at the end. But I think negative split and didn't want to blow up too early. That's a choice I made given that distance and works for me, it doesn't mean that works for others. You are making this one vs the other and presenting in the context of short to mid range pool races. Triathlon is a completely different context. The first one coming out of the water in triathlon, doesn't win the race. It's the one who can execute the entire race well and set PR. You don't need to worry about that in comp pool races since there's nothing immediately following that event - and this is the zone you work best and is a choice you make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59338)
In a nutshell. It *seems* and perhaps I'm wrong there is so much confusion with applying TI and people not getting faster here on this forum that I question why no one wants to look at what has worked and keeps working for thousands and thousands of Masters swimmers around the world. Show up, swim with some intensity and repeat and get faster. That is what resonated with Gerry's Do's and Don't list: Don't use front quadrant or a catch up stroke. Don't bilateral breathe. Don't forget to incorporate fast swimming in every single workout. Don't have low stroke rates. Swim a good portion high intensity sets. etc. Then I look at the hundreds of testimonials on his page of people saying how they met and blew past their goals seems like he is doing a lot right, but it seems to be in stark contrast to TI in many respects.

Again - these are choices, not a comparison. You also assume that TI doesn't advocate high intensity sets. It's important to run swimmers through all gears not just slow or fast rates; swimming long sets with negative or positive splits. But they should know where their limits are, what they can sustain for the distance they are swimming, as well as what works for their physiology and psyche.

Stuart

descending 06-02-2016 05:45 PM

Will ask the guy tonight what his total experience was/is with TI from genesis to now.

I keep forgetting no one here pool races. I'm so swept up in short course racing I lose my bearings, but as I get more bald and grey beard I'm allowed to lose it a little right?

I was not aware TI works through high intensity sets that's a great thing then at least from my reading here I didn't get that people are pushing their red line at all in practice. Meaning it reads like people stop when it gets difficult and go to work on something technical as the fix vs going as long/hard as they can until the stroke falls apart. So TI does blend high end fitness in. That's a win then.

CoachStuartMcDougal 06-03-2016 01:16 AM

Cool, look forward to hearing some details

re: Intensity/Difficulty. Yes and no. The "don't practice struggle" is often misinterpreted, especially by those swim 6-8k daily where swimming is mostly a grind, especially the last half. I generally encourage swimmers not to mask/imprint errors with more yards, and avoid muscling through a set for the sake of only finishing the set sloppy.

I've been introducing a lot more USRPT sets; miss your goal pace three times, stop and reset. Sets like these require razor sharp focus on each stroke and every turn. I think most importantly, always mixing up, challenging the neural system first, physical conditioning is more consequential which support correct movement patterns and adaptations.

Balance errors are masked by high turnover rate, new movement patterns and stroke corrections require slowing turnover to imprint before turning up the gas again, and done so progressively. I'm sure most coaches would agree with that statement, especially the later.

Stuart

descending 06-03-2016 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 59357)
Cool, look forward to hearing some details

re: Intensity/Difficulty. Yes and no. The "don't practice struggle" is often misinterpreted, especially by those swim 6-8k daily where swimming is mostly a grind, especially the last half. I generally encourage swimmers not to mask/imprint errors with more yards, and avoid muscling through a set for the sake of only finishing the set sloppy.

I've been introducing a lot more USRPT sets; miss your goal pace three times, stop and reset. Sets like these require razor sharp focus on each stroke and every turn. I think most importantly, always mixing up, challenging the neural system first, physical conditioning is more consequential which support correct movement patterns and adaptations.

Balance errors are masked by high turnover rate, new movement patterns and stroke corrections require slowing turnover to imprint before turning up the gas again, and done so progressively. I'm sure most coaches would agree with that statement, especially the later.



Stuart

Oh I definitely agree a faster turn over can mask a lot of bad problems. I just see so many people in the triathlete realm who have strokes that are more than capable of going a lot faster they just tinker around trying to reach total perfection before putting any effort into a workout. I have two triathlete friends in particular who both have strokes that are better than mine but I can whip them by 2 and 3 minutes in a 500. I don't even swim distance and my IM relay swim split time was 15 minutes faster than one of these guys. All he needs to do is swim harder and he will be a monster and he constantly talks about his desire to get faster. He thinks he needs better technique. A six-month block of hard swimming and he would close the gap on me greatly in within a year he'd catch me and pass me.

sclim 06-03-2016 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by descending (Post 59360)
Oh I definitely agree a faster turn over can mask a lot of bad problems. I just see so many people in the triathlete realm who have strokes that are more than capable of going a lot faster they just tinker around trying to reach total perfection before putting any effort into a workout. I have two triathlete friends in particular who both have strokes that are better than mine but I can whip them by 2 and 3 minutes in a 500. I don't even swim distance and my IM relay swim split time was 15 minutes faster than one of these guys. All he needs to do is swim harder and he will be a monster and he constantly talks about his desire to get faster. He thinks he needs better technique. A six-month block of hard swimming and he would close the gap on me greatly in within a year he'd catch me and pass me.

I've been following this back and forth with some interest. Obviously I have learned a lot from Stuart, not the least being (last week) that my long-standing catch problem was really a lack of adequate core rotation, and the catch fixed itself once I fixed the core rotation deficit.

But desc has some good points; I wonder all the time how much they apply to me, and should I be doing more anaerobic sets, or more rapid cadence practice and ignore my already high SPL and just allow it to get even higher. I am an adult onset swimmer who, despite all my efforts and regular practice am amazingly slow considering the time and concentration I have put in. I know I have a high cardio-reparatory capacity for my age, and I know I have good upper body strength, and sometimes it seems like a mystery why it's taking so long. But I have utter respect for the very specific skills and particular strengths that swimming demands, and I have to allow some time for them to be developed -- fortunately I think it's finally starting to come to me.

I have resisted the knee jerk idea of "just pull harder" that seemed so attractive 2 years ago. In retrospect that was a good idea resolutely not to imprint struggle, because I think the improvements of the last few weeks would not have been possible had I not carefully avoided continuing whenever I was slipping out of whatever good technique level I had come to be capable of. As a result, now I'm increasingly able to hold on to reasonable form despite some fatigue stress from longer distance repeats. Consequently, I think I can start to go a little more in the direction that desc suggests in terms of intensity, but only because and as long as my technique holds up reasonably.

As Stuart has alluded to, being able to train fast is as important as being able to train less fast but with insight as to how long your pace will let you go for. Also some insight as to being able to independently parse your stroke rate and stroke distance can be very valuable. Keep in mind that both of you recognise that the end goal is the same -- to end up with the capability to complete the given event in the shortest amount of time. For myself, although I'm training for an event where I will do 1.9k or 3.8k in the water and the race is only 1/8th over, I do see the merit in sometimes training (swimming) at faster paces than I will be racing at, strictly to put on strength (the rationale being that having developed the strength to do the prescribed distance at quite a fast pace, I can back off a little in a tri race, and finish the swim leg in a faster time than I would have been able to had I not practiced intense swim sets, but still with lots of gas left in the tank for the rest of the race.).

sclim 06-03-2016 07:12 AM

Oh, descending, I forgot to ask, what is the rationale of the directive "never breathe bilaterally"? Is it always slower to do so when you're sprinting?

s.sciame 06-03-2016 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 59367)
Oh, descending, I forgot to ask, what is the rationale of the directive "never breathe bilaterally"? Is it always slower to do so when you're sprinting?

Sclim, the last podcast is actually about "the proper way a TRIATHLETE should breathe when swimming":

http://tower26.com/podcasts-2/

I still have to listen to it but, in short, the answer to your question is to get more breaths per minute.

By the way, did you listen to the podcast where he says that EVF is overprescribed?

Salvo


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:48 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.