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tab 01-26-2012 01:59 AM

Next stroke: Butterfly
 
I am about to attempt a move into butterfly. My understanding is that butterfly came about from breast stroke. And so, I want to transcend into fly from the breast stroke. I can easily replace the frog kick with a dolphin kick but what I don't see is where the two kicks in fly work into the mix? Am I right one kick is stronger and one weaker. I have been told it is a rhythmic stoke, I am looking for the rhythm.

Grant 01-26-2012 02:43 AM

Hi Tab
There are several approaches.
What has been taught for ages is the two kick per stroke style. Kick your hands in, kick your hands out. Some advocate kicking the hands out to be the stronger one, while others say the kick your hands in should be the stronger. I think the majority say the former.
Several years ago Terry worked on developing a model that would enable most swimmers to swim the Butterfly for distance. In this model which is laid out in his Buttlefly DVD the swimmer just uses one kick per stroke. That is kicking the hands in and emphasis on landing forward, not down. Many other fine points as well.
As in other strokes he has broken the stroke down and progresses the learner thru stages that facilitates the creation of a relatively tireless smooth stroke.
Hope you enjoy the ride. When one gets into the rythum it is a joy to experience.

tab 01-26-2012 03:22 AM

I feel like it is a word on the tip of my tongue and I can't just reach it, but it will come to me. I will try the kick in and kick out. The thing with the breast stroke/fly I am missing is the key hole stroke with the arms, I feel like I am sinking too far into the water.

I will look into the dvd.

CoachSuzanne 01-26-2012 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tab (Post 25913)
I feel like it is a word on the tip of my tongue and I can't just reach it, but it will come to me. I will try the kick in and kick out. The thing with the breast stroke/fly I am missing is the key hole stroke with the arms, I feel like I am sinking too far into the water.

I will look into the dvd.

You are not missing anything. The shpe underwater is less important than finding flow. Flow comes from gravity and buoyancy and timing body movements with the natural forces. Kick in, kick out, keyhole is outside in thinking. Gravity, buoyancy and support are inside out thinking and help both fly and breast feel almost effortless.

tab 01-28-2012 01:29 AM

I made it to the pool today, a dreary, wet, damp, rainy winter day, the pool was nice.

I tried one armed fly, after attempting two arms. I found the one arm much easier to fiddle with. Breathing to the side, dragging one thumb in the water with a stiff straight arm and relaxed wrist. I was able to actually feel the kick in and out of the water, as mentioned and it had a fluid motion to it, although my daughter said I still looked a little stiff. Really odd to tell my body to do something new. A very relaxing feeling, actually, I could almost keep going, but I like to stop and reflect.

Thanks for the comments.

Grant 01-28-2012 03:05 AM

A couple of focus points that have helped me.
When the arms are swinging to the front with palms paralell to the water, do not have them come close together in front of the head. Rather have them enter in front of the shoulders with palms flat or facing down. Feel you are moving ahead not down.
Do not start the catch until you feel the body rising to the surface due to its buoyancy.
When breathing keep the head in line with the body. A head sticking upward destroys the flow. The breath happens when the mouth is just above the water and parallel to it.
The coaches can add so much more. Hope this helps.

tab 01-28-2012 10:49 AM

As of now, I am told my body comes too far out of the water, trying to breath, but with the one arm and my head to the side I can stay closer to the surface. I am keeping in mind I should breath looking straight down or a little forward, but I am not there yet.

Hand placement, palm down not thumb first? Reason for this?

Grant 01-28-2012 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tab (Post 25969)
As of now, I am told my body comes too far out of the water, trying to breath, but with the one arm and my head to the side I can stay closer to the surface. I am keeping in mind I should breath looking straight down or a little forward, but I am not there yet.

Hand placement, palm down not thumb first? Reason for this?

With the palm down there is much less stress on the shoulder joint.
The Butterfly DVD has very good step by step drills that if learned will have one looking down and getting a breath very easily. I do not get a commission :o)

CoachSuzanne 01-28-2012 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tab (Post 25969)
Hand placement, palm down not thumb first? Reason for this?

Less internal rotation of the shoulder joint = less likelyhood of rotator cuff impingment.

tab 01-28-2012 10:14 PM

That's what I thought.

This is similar to freestyle and swimmers that enter their hand thumb first, causing the same problem. In TI freestyle we have the choice to insert the hand into the mail slot, nice and clean, very few bubbles. This does not apply to the butterfly? Your hand has to flop on top of the water or am I missing something.

daveblt 01-29-2012 01:15 AM

The palm faces down on entry but throughout most of the recovery the thumb and forefinger lead the swing of the arm until the moment all the fingertips touch the water .Once the hand enters the palm should then face out .


Dave

Grant 01-29-2012 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tab (Post 25978)
That's what I thought.

In TI freestyle we have the choice to insert the hand into the mail slot, nice and clean, very few bubbles. This does not apply to the butterfly? Your hand has to flop on top of the water or am I missing something.

This is something I am not clear on. I work at entering my arms softly but am told there is still some splashing. I dont know if it is possible to enter in a spearing fashion. To do so one would have to have the body in quite an above water position which would take alot of energy.
Thoughts?

tab 01-29-2012 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveblt (Post 25985)
The palm faces down on entry but throughout most of the recovery the thumb and forefinger lead the swing of the arm until the moment all the fingertips touch the water .Once the hand enters the palm should then face out .


Dave

Interesting, it seems there could be some controversy in here some where. Does this effect the rotator cuff issue? I for sure have some problems with my right shoulder. It is work related, I don't see any issue so far with swimming and would not want to aggravate it. I do appreciate the theory behind how I have started and Dave's recommendation. I think it is just how I have always pictured it and seen it executed.

needer 07-06-2012 02:09 PM

I still have difficulty to get out of water to fly position and therefore I cannot bring my arms forward effortlessly. what should I do to fly easily and prevent fatige. I come out almost up to sholders and with great effort.

azamy 07-07-2012 10:33 AM

Needer,

I am not an expert on this but the guys I have seen who had the similar problem, their body position were more vertical in the water instead of horizontal. As in all strokes the body position and stream line is very important in butterfly. If you have a balanced and streamlined body position with a strong dolphin kick I think you can fly easily out of water in good shape with less energy.

Good luck with that.

needer 07-07-2012 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azamy (Post 29140)
Needer,

I am not an expert on this but the guys I have seen who had the similar problem, their body position were more vertical in the water instead of horizontal. As in all strokes the body position and stream line is very important in butterfly. If you have a balanced and streamlined body position with a strong dolphin kick I think you can fly easily out of water in good shape with less energy.

Good luck with that.

But I think I am in horizontal position even more than enough! here is my video:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B1B...040WXB2eGMxQmc

azamy 07-09-2012 04:32 AM

Hands recovery
 
I looked at the video, your body line has no problems and your kick looks nice and strong too. The problem as I noticed is your hands recovery under water, you recover them like you do in freestyle, in butterfly it is a bit different. I had to struggle for a long time until I could fly easily and the issue was hands recovery.

Here's a video I always used to learn the hands recovery, notice how this Olympian recovers her hands under water, this could be the key.

Good luck with that.

needer 07-09-2012 11:29 AM

thanks I will try to rectify it. but I myself thought there is a problem with timing as it is too difficult to me getting out of water

Richardsk 07-09-2012 02:02 PM

It looks to me as though your kick is coming too much from the knee rather than the hip. Also you seem to be entering your hands right in front of your head rather than in front of the shoulders.

have you tried the drill where you do three strokes with just a short scull with the hands and then one stroke with both arms, trying to get a perfectly clean arm recovery?

Have you got the Better Fly for Every Body DVD?

needer 07-09-2012 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardsk (Post 29193)
It looks to me as though your kick is coming too much from the knee rather than the hip. Also you seem to be entering your hands right in front of your head rather than in front of the shoulders.

have you tried the drill where you do three strokes with just a short scull with the hands and then one stroke with both arms, trying to get a perfectly clean arm recovery?

Have you got the Better Fly for Every Body DVD?

As for hands entry your right it happens. I do saw phelps video about butterfly and some other clips on the internet but not that one.
Firs of all, I need to make sure whether the problem is with my hand recovery or lack of getting out of water properly? kick or hand? or maybe timing.
then I can decide to do which drill...

Richardsk 07-09-2012 10:19 PM

You can see Phelps doing the drill I mentioned right at the beginning of this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1GqvpN9wUI

CharlesCouturier 07-18-2012 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant (Post 25986)
This is something I am not clear on. I work at entering my arms softly but am told there is still some splashing. I dont know if it is possible to enter in a spearing fashion. To do so one would have to have the body in quite an above water position which would take alot of energy.
Thoughts?

Good question. The principles that apply to freestyle in term of arm/hand entry are kind of reversed for butterfly.

That is, instead of entering fingers first, followed by forearm, followed by upper arm and then the shoulder itself, you must aim at entering the shoulder first, followed by the upper arm, followed by the forearm and then the hands.

Micheal Phelps taught this to anyone who would like to reduce the level of splash upon arm entry.

See this now famous clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0

Disclaimer: I tried to do just that in 2010, investing a fair amount of time at it, let me tell you that it's easier said than done. Phelps, this giant and much more powerful swimmer (than I) still splashes far less than I would do, despite the fact that I'm much much slower than him.

Danny 07-25-2012 02:03 AM

Needer,

When I looked at your video, it looked to me like you were kicking too early when your hands come out of the water. You can tell if this is the case by checking to see if your feet are out of the water when you kick. Try waiting consciously until your feet are clearly under water before initiating your kick. When you do this, it should postpone the kick so that it happens closer to when your hands come out. If you kick when your hands come out, it will raise your body and make your recovery easier. If you kick too early, your hands will pull down your body as they come out and make your recovery more difficult.

I'm working on this same issue myself.

Carlos8100 08-25-2012 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 29710)
Needer,

When I looked at your video, it looked to me like you were kicking too early when your hands come out of the water. You can tell if this is the case by checking to see if your feet are out of the water when you kick. Try waiting consciously until your feet are clearly under water before initiating your kick. When you do this, it should postpone the kick so that it happens closer to when your hands come out. If you kick when your hands come out, it will raise your body and make your recovery easier. If you kick too early, your hands will pull down your body as they come out and make your recovery more difficult.

I'm working on this same issue myself.

I'm totally agree with you.You'r 100% good here that try waiting consciously until your feet are clearly under water before initiating your kick.
If you conquer too beginning, your arms will take down your body system as they come out and make your restoration more challenging.

BrentonFord 11-16-2012 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tab (Post 25911)
I am about to attempt a move into butterfly. My understanding is that butterfly came about from breast stroke. And so, I want to transcend into fly from the breast stroke. I can easily replace the frog kick with a dolphin kick but what I don't see is where the two kicks in fly work into the mix? Am I right one kick is stronger and one weaker. I have been told it is a rhythmic stoke, I am looking for the rhythm.

One kick is typically stronger than the other. Drills are the best way to find your rythm. They gradually help you build up your stroke and get a feel for timing. It's difficult to go straight into butterfly swimming if you are new to it. I wouldn't focus too much on looking at the commonalities between fly and breast. This won't be of much help.

scr 05-08-2013 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier (Post 29472)
Micheal Phelps taught this to anyone who would like to reduce the level of splash upon arm entry.

See this now famous clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd67PMryIT0

For a master swimmer without the degree of shoulder flexibility like Micheal Phelps, what options can he have to reduce the splash upon arm entry and the drag before the 1st kick?

John

BP 05-21-2013 12:16 PM

Just a couple of questions regarding the butterfly stroke:

i) Whilst the arms recover - palms down - how close should they be (and the hands) from the water's surface?

ii) What is meant exactly by the 'keyhole' shape? Is there a definite 'out and in' movement by the hands/arms to create this shape, or does this naturally happen as your body pushes down through the water? (Sorry if this question isn't that clear; I hope you know what I mean).

Many thanks in advance.

BP

Richardsk 05-21-2013 06:13 PM

Hi BP

The keyhole and hourglass shapes are both regarded by many nowadays as outmoded, but if you are more interested in gentle distance-oriented butterfly they may still be interesting and amusing to investigate.

I may say that for me at the moment 100 meters would come into the distance category, but hope springs eternal.

Almost any general book on swimming will provide a description of the keyhole and hourglass pulls. Basically each arm traces something quite similar to the now also outmoded s-pull in freestyle, that is to say the hands first move outward (slide to the corners) and then the hands point down and sweep in under the body and exit near the hips.

Nowadays the fashion seems to be more of a straight back pull with vertical forearm, although no doubt viewed from underneath there is a slight curve.

More skilled butterfliers may comment.

CharlesCouturier 05-24-2013 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scr (Post 39190)
For a master swimmer without the degree of shoulder flexibility like Micheal Phelps, what options can he have to reduce the splash upon arm entry and the drag before the 1st kick?

John

Swimming like Phelps without the shoulder flexibility is next to impossible. And even with shoulder flexibility, embracing some of his stroke characteristics is not only very hard, it's very risky.

However the process allows you to better understand how great he/his coach have been. Unless I want to do well over the 200 some day (and I doubt it ever happens due to lack of time to train for this distance), I am not sure I will try to mimic Phelps as hard as I tried in 2010.

His stroke really gets hard to mimic by arm entry. Look very closely. You'll notice that he enters shoulders/upper arm/forearm/hands last. Not only that. What's very very fascinating, is that his arm recovery goes 100miles per hour after exit (like it's case for all fly swimmers) but by arm entry, arm have no longer any autonomous velocity. You can not guess just by looking. You have to try.

What creates some splash is that you have your momentum gained during arm recovery, that's for one, and also you want to start pulling on arm entry. The combination of these 2 things creates splashes.

Phelps literally stops any momentum as soon as arms are at the width they will enter. That I could never do it at full speed. I came close, but by doing so, component number 2 listed above stops working. I lack pulling power and loose speed (not a feeling, it's tested for 12 straight monts dammit).

He stops momentum, and just let the whole upper body fall to create the downhill effect. And that mutan doesn't stop there.

His whole upper body sinks but the darn hands stay right at the surface. Shoulders is the buffer having to absorb that stress. Huge upper body falling deep, pushed by the whole body undulation, and hands stay at the surface.

When hands enter, body has entered a while ago (remember, it's head first then upper body then shoulder then elbows then hands, so by the time hands enter, upper body is already low). But it continues going even deeper whilst hands stay there. This creates a spring effect. But outch. Shoulders!!!!

Now to try and answer your question. As soon as hands touch the water, they *must* have stopped their inward route. Recovery brings both hands to be very wide and far apart. They will enter closer to each other. You have to bring them together. You want to do this airborne. As soon as they touch water, if you continue bringing them inward, that creates huge splashes. Ideally, you want them shoulder width. This could splash less.

The thing I used to work on to eliminate splash, simple, is full stroke trying to splash as little as possible. I'd be able to hold about 50sec/50m like that, but would fail as soon as I would accelerate the pace. Here you see me on 2 diff clips, 2 diff pace. One very easy, the other moderate. And I'm trying to enter wider than usual (as I would usually enter with hands almost touching together). I'm trying to stop this momentum and simple let myself fall, head/upper body/shoulder/elbow/hands last.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ehug9w8cPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1451WIsOJs

scr 05-25-2013 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier (Post 39922)
Swimming like Phelps without the shoulder flexibility is next to impossible. And even with shoulder flexibility, embracing some of his stroke characteristics is not only very hard, it's very risky.

Thank you for your detail explanation. I wish I had this advice a few years ago, so I could avoid the shoulder injury twice. I accelerated the arms swing during recovery and hoped to stop like Phelps. Unfortunately my shoulder does not have his strength and flexibility.

Next I mimic Kathleen Hersey's entry which is opposite to Phelps, ie. hand first, shoulder follow. See time 0:50-0:55 seconds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z464kjZfsas

Quote:

The thing I used to work on to eliminate splash, simple, is full stroke trying to splash as little as possible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ehug9w8cPU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1451WIsOJs
You are a quiet butterflyer!

I have been working on to reduce splash with smooth entry for some time. Inspired by the gliding butterfly some time ago, I am studying the full stroke part by part such as
- stroke with arms only
- stroke with arms plus 1st kick etc.

John

CharlesCouturier 05-25-2013 04:15 PM

Wow, my bad it feels good to be understood :)

You're spot on. Your girl displays a stroke which, hand entry/catch wise is opposite to Phelps.

I bet she doesn't achieve this sort of stretch under water:



This is the stretch I was referring too earlier. This is what makes Phelps like fly swimming next to impossible, without being under high level coaching supervision. Looks nice on a picture, but feels awful for your shoulders.

On the other end of the spectrum, your female model by entering hands first probably let the hands go down on catch *before* upper body. The stroke is thus easier to manage, from an overall training perspective.

One last thing. You probably notice that your female model is splashing more than Phelps on entry, she's probably 6 in shorter and 60pounds lighter (at least). That says a lot.

scr 05-27-2013 08:21 AM

Phelps is exceptional and his strokes are good for theoretical study. Every time I see his big 'S' butterfly photo, my right shoulder feels uncomfortable again :(

Quote:

On the other end of the spectrum, your female model by entering hands first probably let the hands go down on catch *before* upper body. The stroke is thus easier to manage, from an overall training perspective.
Hersey does perform a undulation. See 03:51-03:54 seconds lane 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUq42uGtnw
As she is a member of USA swimming national team, I would expect that she adapts Phelps style of entry. It is interesting to know why she does it.

John

CharlesCouturier 05-28-2013 06:13 PM

I dislike this clip, just like I dislike any demonstration of some fly breathing every 2 over the 200m distance. This to me still indicates that several coaches are yet to understand this stroke.

Hard statements I know. But after seeing our Canadian flyer (200m) doing this in London 2012, I really have a big thing against that really.

Men seem to understand the fly stroke much better. Female possibly lack a polar star somewhere in the sky to follow.

The task should be to teach the fly stroke in a way to aim at great speed and ease breathing every stroke. Over 200m, you just *don't* need the added speed that not breathing provides, in theory.

I mention in theory, as these cycles non breathing with a head that is kept way too low do potentially come in the way of body undulation. Look very closely at these cycles. You'll notice that the head not only remains too low, but it does give a little downward tilt which seem to interfere with forward momentum.

I believe that when swimming fast fly, not breathing, your head should still perform an upward tilt, as it is important as a component to achieve optimal distance per stroke. The only thing though, is that once you master this aspect very well, your difference between 25m flat out no breathing and 25m flat out breathing ever cycle becomes so tiny, that it explains why top 2 males over 100m fly in london were breathing every stroke at the shortest fly event available. The 3rd one was sometimes breathing every 2, but with no downward tilt of the head whatsoever.

This is where we're at, females seem to drag behind.

scr 05-30-2013 01:03 PM

When I learned fly, I breathed every cycle because I need air to survive. Then I breathed every 2 cycles and used the non-breathing cycle to adjust body position back to normal. Later I breathed 2 cycles + 1 non-breathing cycle, just showed I am different :) Now I breathe every cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier (Post 40141)
The task should be to teach the fly stroke in a way to aim at great speed and ease breathing every stroke.

Absolutly! I would like to put an emphasis on the word 'ease'. Then we can play around with the other components of fly.

I agree with you the head shall perform an upward tilt in every cycle. As the body travel forward in a 'S' shape path, the head must be adjusted to smooth the body undulation especially for the body upward path. My head tilts up a small angle, say my eyes look at 3 feet ahead of freestyle position. I amaze that it sends a signal to the body forming a wide 'U' shape for the 2nd kick. If my head tilts downward in the body upward path, it will dampen the effect of 2nd kick.

Quote:

Try to look up through the hole that your body will open when surfacing, before surfacing. In other words, before surfacing your upper body is submerged in the water right? When you surface, your body creates a hole in the water, a hole through which it will slide out to surface and breathe.
If I do it, the incline angle of body to the water surface is too large and it affects the recovery. I notice that an optimal angle can give me a relax recovery and entry. I try to get the benefits of recovery and entry as we do in freestyle.

John

CharlesCouturier 05-30-2013 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scr (Post 40214)
If my head tilts downward in the body upward path, it will dampen the effect of 2nd kick.

Voilą, it's so simple. And this effect can be seen too (among elites).

Second kick / final push gets you to fly (literally) during this critical phase where your arms are recovering. Any tilt down of the head (like we often see) shortens the *fly over* phase.

liolio 01-19-2017 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scr (Post 40013)
Phelps is exceptional and his strokes are good for theoretical study. Every time I see his big 'S' butterfly photo, my right shoulder feels uncomfortable again :(



Hersey does perform a undulation. See 03:51-03:54 seconds lane 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUq42uGtnw
As she is a member of USA swimming national team, I would expect that she adapts Phelps style of entry. It is interesting to know why she does it.

John

Interestingly ą 4:51 we see that the "girl" (not sure which country, the one that touches the wall ą5:02) only kick once as the arms enter the water then she stay flat till the next cycle.


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