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-   -   A sweet bodyroll to arm connection (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8826)

Zenturtle 09-04-2016 09:03 AM

A sweet bodyroll to arm connection
 
In my view, how this guy connects his arms to the bodyroll from 3 min 8 is the way to strive for.
He also keeps a good bodyroll in his one arm swim/one arm extended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbO95SP-4dU
Great kicktechnique and timing too.
His arm scoops up a bit too much after entry, but he connects to the water so smooth going to the power phase...
NIce nice nice.

Ti approved or not?

daveblt 09-05-2016 01:17 AM

The hand recovery is also too high off the water .Under water looks pretty good though except for the hand also scooping too high like you mentioned .

Dave

Zenturtle 09-05-2016 07:04 AM

I think I like a touch more shoulder driven action in a freestyle stroke compared to the TI arm timing.
The slightly weird recovery of this swimmer is relaxed and elbow lead, but has a stronger connection with the underwater arm as is the case with a more catchup timing.
The fall of the arm is almost linked with the begin of the pull of the underarm.
This is a sort of shoulder connection that is broken in the catchup timing.
Its halfway between the windmill connection and the catchup timing.
Personally I like this timing more than the catchup timing, also because its easier to translate from this timing to a higher strokerate without dead spots.
TI has a lot of good points, but the main flaw that is ingrained in some manner in my view is the hurried catch after a long arm extension.
Thats ok at low strokerates, but often leads to a certain underwater arm mechanics when the effort level goes up.
I have been nagging about this point a thousend times. Call me a pulling idiot, but I find it such a waiste to not use a good underwater arm action when balance, alignment, breathing etc is all in place.

This is what I see all the time, especially in TI swimmers:
Watch at 1 min 40:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHP3...I#t=115.149208

Watch Dan Bullocks underwater arm mechanics. Looks familiar?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feUhyCklHL0
It looks ugly and inefficient to my eyes. If I compare that action to the smooth connection of the asian swimmer, my personal choice is easy.
I only wish more TI swimmers will show more of that underwater smoothness and more continuous connection shown by the asian swimmer in their underwater view.
Should be possible to combine that with a more catchup arm timing also I hope.
Well, Shinji and some others show it is possible.

kirill 09-06-2016 11:09 AM

Very interesting.
I personally found that reaching "VW bumper" as far as possible (and then extend forward even more) helps create the feeling of high elbow vertical catch. Not sure about timing though.
I wish I could film myself underwater and then show you, ZenTurtle.

IMHO Asian guy rocks, thank you for the video. My untrained eye does not reveal the scooping of the hand, I only notice that he does not spear as deep as most of TI coaches I saw, including Terry and Shinji.
To me, catch phase looks similar to Alexander Popov's catch here: https://youtu.be/tgmpPFDN7oI?t=287

s.sciame 09-06-2016 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kirill (Post 60419)
To me, catch phase looks similar to Alexander Popov's catch here: https://youtu.be/tgmpPFDN7oI?t=287

Great video! Worth to see it from the beginning. Popov has a special catch, definitely one of the best ones I've ever seen, it seems he climbs over solid water. Maybe a lot of waterpolo drill has helped him on this.

Salvo

Zenturtle 09-06-2016 03:52 PM

Yeah, great video. Never have seen this one before.
and this is also a good one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tND53jKaj5E
Popov looks very wobbly in the core compared to solid vessel Tucker, but Tucker is pushing a lot of water down on his breathing side, while taking a very low breath too.
Good footage!
I can go measuring their arm slippage again ;-)

A lot more interesting fresh footage there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHq6oJfHmZA

Falling into the right arm catch to get propulsion without actively engaging arm muscles. Never have seen this demonstrated so well. Super setup of the leg at the front of catch and a kick at the back...Man this looks brilliant!
Ledecky also uses this technique a bit.

s.sciame 09-07-2016 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 60423)
A lot more interesting fresh footage there
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHq6oJfHmZA

Falling into the right arm catch to get propulsion without actively engaging arm muscles. Never have seen this demonstrated so well. Super setup of the leg at the front of catch and a kick at the back...Man this looks brilliant!
Ledecky also uses this technique a bit.

Wow, I like this stroke! Also similar to Laure Manadou's catch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbelgVrdsSk

And David Davies' as well. Not sure about actively engaging arm muscles or not and whether this stroke is safe for the shoulder (it's easy to go outside the shoulders plane if you don't retract the scapulas enough), but for sure it's an excellent anchor.

Salvo

Zenturtle 09-07-2016 01:22 PM

that are symmetric swimmers. This is more the loping style, but with enough fall and paddle angle you get a bit of the same idea in a symmetric stroke. Brooke Bennet is the extreme example.
In that style I believe its also a lot of rotational energy they are catching, because they work at high strokerates.
With the asymmetric loping style one side is used to jack the body up and the other one to let it fall in the downward angled paddle.
Ledecky is doing the same
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUtde_vtmIQ

You see she isnt moving that arm much when she falls into that angled paddle, she mostly stabilises it and connects it to her whole body. Thats far less exhausting than actively moving that arm backwards and she still gets some propulsion during that fall.
When the fall has ended and she start to bounce back on buoyancy she starts pulling harder again, working with the bigger whole body buoyancy - mass forces that are available.
The big negative is that you have to jack the body up before you can use the fall.
How to do that without expending too much extra energy?

That russian guy makes it all look pretty efficient and natural, but its still hard to defend/explain this style from a pure mechanical efficiency perspective.

s.sciame 09-08-2016 07:26 AM

Who's that guy? Can anybody translate his name?

Salvo

Zenturtle 09-08-2016 11:00 AM

And translate the voice over. I only picked up the word symmetry

The avarage elite loper is a little less refined.
Without the downward angled paddle all that movement makes less sense.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRuKN4HKzBU sprint style, loping from 1 min 46

Phelps version looks pretty smooth and effective too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziUBplSIK0


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