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-   -   Paddle vs. Propeller: Which is Superior? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3539)

Donal F 06-25-2012 11:43 AM

Paddle vs. Propeller: Which is Superior?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=eRkZTclaEsA#!

Found this on Swimmers Daily. I'm fairly sure that I'm a sculler, but "Rajat Mittal, a Johns Hopkins fluid dynamics expert, has found that the deep catch stroke, resembling a paddle, has the edge over sculling, the bent-arm, propeller-inspired motion."

Richardsk 06-25-2012 03:37 PM

The so-called deep catch that this chap appears to be talking about is more or less exactly what TI recommends. I don't think anyone at a high level tries to do an S-pull any more, and as far as I understand it the S-path observed by Counsilman is now thought to be a consequence of body roll and not something one should consciously try to achieve. However, I don't think anyone at a high level actually pulls straight back, although that may be what they are trying to achieve. I always observe the arm bending at the elbow and the hand passing under the body before it exits, which suggests a curved path viewed from underneath as in Counsilman's experiments. Again, perhaps what we see on video is partly due to body roll. For us ordinary mortals, spearing straight to the catch and then forgetting about the arm is doubtless the best policy.

CoachSuzanne 06-25-2012 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donal F (Post 28895)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=eRkZTclaEsA#!

Found this on Swimmers Daily. I'm fairly sure that I'm a sculler, but "Rajat Mittal, a Johns Hopkins fluid dynamics expert, has found that the deep catch stroke, resembling a paddle, has the edge over sculling, the bent-arm, propeller-inspired motion."

AGreed with the above that the "deep catch" he describes is very much along the lines of what TI teaches. it's been shown in CFD studies that sculling as int he S shaped stroke, does not add an significant forward propulsion.

Traditions are hard to change and fast people still swim with "sub optimal" stroking patterns.

Biomechanics and individuality however factor into the type of stroking that seems to suit different folks.

I grew up a sculler and could not get faster no matter how much I swam. I am now veyr comfortable with a stroke TI style "Deep catch". I've also always gravitated towards more power oriented upper body sports (kayaking, rock climbing).

I have no doubt that there are many folks, women in particular, for whom this simply does not feel comfortable and they gravitate towards the "easier gearing" that sculling allows, even though it wastes energy and is less powerful.

People aren't willing ot make changes unless they realize that something isn't working for them...even if a coach believes that a change may be for the better, then swimmer has to be motivated to make the change.

CoachToddE 06-25-2012 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardsk (Post 28899)
The so-called deep catch that this chap appears to be talking about is more or less exactly what TI recommends. I don't think anyone at a high level tries to do an S-pull any more, and as far as I understand it the S-path observed by Counsilman is now thought to be a consequence of body roll and not something one should consciously try to achieve. However, I don't think anyone at a high level actually pulls straight back, although that may be what they are trying to achieve. I always observe the arm bending at the elbow and the hand passing under the body before it exits, which suggests a curved path viewed from underneath as in Counsilman's experiments. Again, perhaps what we see on video is partly due to body roll. For us ordinary mortals, spearing straight to the catch and then forgetting about the arm is doubtless the best policy.

Agree with the comments posted. I'd add that Counsilman's observation of the S-Curve is not what was taught to every kid growing up in the late 60's and on till probably early 2000's. He observed a slight insweep of the hand at the catch and straight pull back and a slight outsweep at the end of the pull as the hand exited the water. All due to body role as Richard notes. He then observed that it appeared to be in the shape of an elongated S. Of course communication being what it is, coaches only heard S-shape pull and started teaching the over exaggerated S to swimmers. I agree that I haven't seen (doesn't mean there aren't any out there) any elite swimmers in many years that swim with the S pattern any longer. A lot of different recovery methods but most all have the straight deep initiation of the catch and activate the large lat's for strength during the pull. As noted by Coach Suzanne the S (skulling) pull that sweeps in under the body deflects a lot of power and propulsive forces thus making it easier to pull your arms back and you can pull at a high speed leaving you with the impression of swimming fast. In addition you are using all the small muscle groups (triceps, deltoids, some minor lat action) that will tire a lot faster than the back muscles.

Further, I haven't seen any coach I've been around talk about the S shape pull since 1996 that I can remember.

Donal F 06-25-2012 08:47 PM

Well, to my knowledge, Ernest Maglischo didn't start to walk back on lift vs drag until 2003's Swimming Fastest. And Emmett Hines still has sculling articles posted here:
http://www.h2oustonswims.org/articles_whole.html

Richardsk 06-25-2012 10:07 PM

I'm sure that sculling has its place in swimming and certainly in the breaststroke and perhaps also in the butterfly, although the straight back pull seems to be flavour of the moment there too. It is also pleasant to do and exercises muscles that don't otherwise seem to get exercised. It's a lot of fun to float on the back and scull feet first down the pool. Some say it improves the elusive feel for the water.

I don't see any sculling in this video of Ian Thorpe, and although it seems to me the pull is near as dammit straight back the hand definitely doesn't follow a straight line. You might like to turn the sound down because the music doesn't seem suitable at all,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b1Fi...eature=related

Donal F 06-26-2012 12:41 AM

It's funny, but I paid attention this afternoon, and I only scull on one side. My left pulls straight back, while my right hand sculls towards the center. I'm guessing this is a leftover from when I needed to balance after rolling right after breathing.

CoachSuzanne 06-26-2012 04:14 AM

Sculling as a drill...Emmit Hine's articles and this really super cool video by a TI coach in Israel, Gadi, are different than sculling during the swim.

on one hand if you scull while drilling it's likely that you may bring it into your stroke. But of you are aware of what you are doing, as Gadi is...they can be super fun.

BTW I was taught an exaggerated S-pull and my sister in law is teaching her fellow triathletes that there are "3 sculling places" in the swim stroke. I want to fall over every time I hear her say that...but hvae to be careful of what/how I correct when I'm in her 'turf' at her health club.

Anyway ,check this out, drill #6 is one of my favorites to just play

Sculling GAmes & Drills
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2guuxB077eI

Richardsk 06-26-2012 08:57 AM

Thanks Suzanne

I've seen this video before but it's nice to be reminded of it. I must try merging the turbulence today. I don't think I really feel turbulence but definitely feel pressure. Playing with sculling is one of the things I do when the shallow end is full of kids and lap swimming is more or less impossible, I think my left hand scull is less effective than my right hand, but I suppose it's normal for one hand to be less skilful than the other. The same goes for my left leg versus my right where kicking is concerned, I used to jump off my left leg, though, so it should be stronger in some respects. Swimming is full of mysteries!

Richardsk 06-26-2012 03:25 PM

Speaking of differences in arms and legs (were we?), I noticed today while doing some one-arm fly that the opposite leg to the stroking arm takes most of the strain in the kick (felt in the tendon). Funny that. I'd have thought that both legs would take it equally. Another little detail to pay attention to.

CoachToddE 06-26-2012 07:15 PM

Thanks Suzanne, I hadn't seen that video before. I have done tons of sculling drills and they are like play time in the pool during a practice session. As to the articles by Hines that Donal F referred too he also talks of them as drills as Suzanne mentioned. They are meant to help with the feel of the water pressure as the angle of pitch of the hand changes. Hines also states in one part (2 or 3) that the most optimum pitch for freestyle is the vertical pitch and straight back. The other strokes, butterfly, breaststroke and backstroke rely more on changing pitch angles during the stroke.

I especially find the sculling feet first on my back as my favorite with hands at the side, great core workout keeping your rear up at the surface. The one I have the hardest time with is the feet first on your stomach hands out in front of your head. You (well at least I do) have to keep a lite flutter kick going to keep your feet at the surface and stay balanced.

Donal F 06-27-2012 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardsk (Post 28931)
Speaking of differences in arms and legs (were we?), I noticed today while doing some one-arm fly that the opposite leg to the stroking arm takes most of the strain in the kick (felt in the tendon). Funny that. I'd have thought that both legs would take it equally. Another little detail to pay attention to.

I can't remember the last time I tried one arm fly, but I would expect that the leg on the opposite end of your center of gravity from that one arm would get most of the work.

CoachToddE 06-27-2012 02:13 PM

Depends on how your executing your one arm fly. You should be rolling back onto your stomach as your arm completes its wide recovery and be kicking upon entry and once at the completion of the pull. You can do one arm two ways; 1) with opposite arm extended in front which will emphasize the entry and catch of the arm stroke and 2) opposite arm at your side which will emphasize the exit kick as the arm is pulling. Try both methods if you have not they are interesting to play with and feel the difference just as sculling.

CoachSuzanne 06-27-2012 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachToddE (Post 28954)
Depends on how your executing your one arm fly. You should be rolling back onto your stomach as your arm completes its wide recovery and be kicking upon entry and once at the completion of the pull. You can do one arm two ways; 1) with opposite arm extended in front which will emphasize the entry and catch of the arm stroke and 2) opposite arm at your side which will emphasize the exit kick as the arm is pulling. Try both methods if you have not they are interesting to play with and feel the difference just as sculling.

In december our club did a 100x100 relay for charity. we had 7 swimmers in our 25 yd lane...5 on the relay and 2 doing it solo, but drafting and changing leads every 500.

I entertained myself by doing an IM 100 every few turns, so I'd swich to 1 arm fly while passing the 2-some...it was really fun to do 2 arm fly, switch to 1 arm to pass (coming the opposite way), then back to 2 arm. I felt like I'd really achieved some (minor) level of proficiency in the stroke.

Playing with strokes is how we learn!


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