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-   -   Exhaling (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8695)

jboosted92 05-23-2016 12:10 PM

Exhaling
 
So as per many, breathing is by far my number 1 issue....

here is what I identified.

1. I have a good lung capacity, so theortically i could probably stroke about 12 times breathing out slowly. ( i know not good)

Should i be exhaling 100% through nose? 50% nose/mouth....having trouble figuring out whats best, as i work towards fixing my exhale/inhale issue

thank you

michaelmarshall5030 05-23-2016 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59048)
Should i be exhaling 100% through nose? 50% nose/mouth....having trouble figuring out whats best, as i work towards fixing my exhale/inhale issue

thank you

From personal experience, I have found that breathing out of my nose and mouth at the same time creates problems when rolling to get my next breath because water tends to enter my mouth even though I am exhaling with my lips slightly pursed (complete open mouth exhaling is impossible for me). It merely is a mechanics problem with me, as much as some folks can do it. Because exhaling with my nose and mouth is not possible, I now strictly breath out of my nose. I am only relaying my personal experience, but in the end it is what you feel comfortable doing without taking in water while exhaling efficiently.

CoachBobM 05-24-2016 03:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59048)
So as per many, breathing is by far my number 1 issue....

here is what I identified.

1. I have a good lung capacity, so theortically i could probably stroke about 12 times breathing out slowly. ( i know not good)

Should i be exhaling 100% through nose? 50% nose/mouth....having trouble figuring out whats best, as i work towards fixing my exhale/inhale issue

thank you

I breathe in through my mouth and out through my nose.

But I'm not clear from your post what your issue is with breathing. What problems are you encountering?


Bob

jboosted92 05-24-2016 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachBobM (Post 59066)
I breathe in through my mouth and out through my nose.

But I'm not clear from your post what your issue is with breathing. What problems are you encountering?


Bob

Thanks Bob...

well i guess im not 100% sure, but here are the facts...

1. When i exhale in teh water, blowing out through my mouth, if i slowly blow out, i literrally probably have 6-7 strokes. cant be good

2. Article after article, "breath out with your face in the water, until you turn your head and ready for air. Well, the moment you blow out "completely" your head better be turned for air , otherwise you either are
a. Holding your breath until your mouth surfaces...not good
b. sucking down water ...not good

maybe im not reading that direction right

3. mentally when i turn my head most times, im then "lifting" before placing back down, and thus halting my momentum...

4. Out of breath....even when i get a good breath, by the time the next stroke comes, i feel out of braeth/tense....

i may be going to fast, but i feel like if im going slow, i sink.....

*RIDICILOUSLY FRUSTRATED*

Tomorrow i try my FInis front snorkel, hoping i can get a great stroke, to do the following:

1. Identify if im out of breath even when i CAN breath...

2. Perfect my balance, stroke etc...so breathing becomes only issue..

as a sidenote, im 6 foot 180, 8-9% bodyfat, and outside hte pool, in GREAT shape, muscalarly and cardio

CoachBobM 05-25-2016 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59099)
1. When i exhale in teh water, blowing out through my mouth, if i slowly blow out, i literrally probably have 6-7 strokes. cant be good

It sounds like you're deciding when to breathe based on when you finish exhaling. Most of us do it the other way around. If, for example, I decide to breathe every 3rd stroke, I time my rate of exhalation so that I finish emptying my lungs just as I complete my 3rd stroke.

Quote:

2. Article after article, "breath out with your face in the water, until you turn your head and ready for air. Well, the moment you blow out "completely" your head better be turned for air , otherwise you either are
a. Holding your breath until your mouth surfaces...not good
b. sucking down water ...not good

maybe im not reading that direction right
Again, it's a matter of timing your rate of exhalation based on how frequently you want to breathe.

Quote:

3. mentally when i turn my head most times, im then "lifting" before placing back down, and thus halting my momentum...
What is causing you to lift your head?

Quote:

4. Out of breath....even when i get a good breath, by the time the next stroke comes, i feel out of braeth/tense....
Do you mean when the next stroke comes, or when you've finished the next 6-7 strokes? It sounds like you're exhaling too slowly and consequently not breathing as often as you need to.

Quote:

i may be going to fast, but i feel like if im going slow, i sink.....
Going too fast isn't usually something swimmers consider to be a problem. They just go to the Olympics and win gold medals. ;-) Do you mean that you think you may be stroking too fast?


Bob

novaswimmer 05-25-2016 01:57 PM

'...if i slowly blow out, i literrally probably have 6-7 strokes...'

Are you saying you only breathe every 6 to 7 strokes? No wonder you are getting out of breath!


'...Out of breath....even when i get a good breath, by the time the next stroke comes, i feel out of braeth/tense...'


So, here you mention you are out of breath even when the NEXT stroke comes.

Not understanding your breathing sequence.

Can you try breathing every other stroke first and see how that works for you? For example breathe on the right side, every other stroke, going one lap, then breathe on the left going the next lap.

If that is too often, then try every third stroke. Or switch 'every other' to 'every third' as needed.

'Different strokes for different folks' as they say! I usually exhale slowly thru my nose, but save just enough air to blow the remainder out thru nose just as my mouth reaches air to breath -- sort of like a breaching whale (but on a smaller scale!). This helps me keep the water out of my nose. Then I grab a quick mouthful of air (thru mouth) and immediately turn my face down again. It seems to work for me, but it took two years to get to where I am today. It was NOT a quick learning process.

jboosted92 05-25-2016 09:07 PM

UPDATE:

ok

So i took the Finis Freestyle unit to the pool this time. Initial result was surprising, i did a full lenght (25 meters ) even with breathing through the unit, i was still kinda winded!! i was like WTF, how can i be winded even if i am breathing. I noticed my legs felt heavy/stressed.

A older gentleman was in the lane next to me, and i explained to him my troubles, so he had me do a few strokes, (without the finis) and here is what he noticed..

A. My Legs were WAY to far down.....
B. My arms/stroke was off a bit. I wasnt "reaching" enough, and my catch alignnment was "off"
C. He suggested "pushing chest down" to elevate hips ( clearly i thought i was in past, but may have forgetten to "Stick with it"

After that, i "really" tried to reach forward, and WOW, i went about 15 meters further than usual ( now bear in mind, i wasnt thinking about breathing at this point) very focused on reach. He also noticed i wasnt "rolling" properly , and that could be creating drag.

Of course by the time this all happened i was pretty beat, but here is my plan for tomorrow. Let me know if this sounds good....


1. Use the reach to really start disciplining my body roll (treat like a canoe instead of a barge)
2. Consciensly push my chest down thus causing my legs to be higher. I really could feel the drag with the Finis....i thought it might be oxygen related but it could really feel "tiredness" in my legs after 1 lap...does that make sense?

Any tips on how to "time" the stroke with my exhale. I tried a bit today, but maybe too dum dum to figure out .... "3rd stroke, finish breath...etc.." Should i just try every right arm stroke? seems like a lot for me.. ( by alot meaning,..ill be breathing like a Lamas class)

Any advice? concerns?

jboosted92 05-25-2016 09:10 PM

another update:

1. R-E-L-A-X.

I swear when im in the pool, i am relaxed, but last night ( while online looking for help) and pretty much every night for past week, i am "CONSUMED" about fixing this problem...i notice i started to "very lightly" hyperventilate! HAHAH...imagine that...just thinknig about fixing this problem, and i start to have braething issues :) :)

I have always been a high energy person ( i do everything 100%), but also very obessive/consumed when i have a hurdle....

any advice on THIS issue?

CoachBobM 05-26-2016 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59133)
A older gentleman was in the lane next to me, and i explained to him my troubles, so he had me do a few strokes, (without the finis) and here is what he noticed..

A. My Legs were WAY to far down.....
B. My arms/stroke was off a bit. I wasnt "reaching" enough, and my catch alignnment was "off"
C. He suggested "pushing chest down" to elevate hips ( clearly i thought i was in past, but may have forgetten to "Stick with it"

After that, i "really" tried to reach forward, and WOW, i went about 15 meters further than usual ( now bear in mind, i wasnt thinking about breathing at this point) very focused on reach. He also noticed i wasnt "rolling" properly , and that could be creating drag.

Of course by the time this all happened i was pretty beat, but here is my plan for tomorrow. Let me know if this sounds good....


1. Use the reach to really start disciplining my body roll (treat like a canoe instead of a barge)
2. Consciensly push my chest down thus causing my legs to be higher. I really could feel the drag with the Finis....i thought it might be oxygen related but it could really feel "tiredness" in my legs after 1 lap...does that make sense?

Any tips on how to "time" the stroke with my exhale. I tried a bit today, but maybe too dum dum to figure out .... "3rd stroke, finish breath...etc.." Should i just try every right arm stroke? seems like a lot for me.. ( by alot meaning,..ill be breathing like a Lamas class)

Any advice? concerns?

The two things that affect whether your hips are sinking are:

1) Your head position: Have you relaxed your head into the water with your nose pointing down?

2) The position of your leading arm: You want the wrist of your leading arm to be lower than your shoulder and you want your palm turned down and your fingertips angled slightly down. You need to experiment with how low your leading arm needs to be to bring your hips up so they're level with your shoulders.

In freestyle, you want to be going back and forth between your skate position on one side and your skate position on the other side. The switch drills in the TI training materials (spearswitch, swingswitch, overswitch) are designed to teach you to coordinate your body roll with your armstroke and recovery, and to perfect your catch. A lack of body roll doesn't really create drag - you will just end up relying purely on arm strength instead of drawing on your core body to power your stroke.

Breathing every 3rd stroke is definitely better than breathing every other stroke, provided that you are getting enough air, since this will force you to alternate breathing sides, thereby making your stroke more symmetric. If you find that you're not getting enough air that way, another alternative is to breathe on your right side on one length of the pool and breathe on your left side on the next length, and so on.


Bob

daveblt 06-03-2016 01:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachBobM (Post 59145)

. If you find that you're not getting enough air that way, another alternative is to breathe on your right side on one length of the pool and breathe on your left side on the next length, and so on.
Bob


You can also breathe to the left halfway down, take 3 strokes and breathe to the right the other half .

Dave

jboosted92 06-03-2016 07:34 PM

UPDATES!

While not great, i am making it 25 meters at about 50% less tiredness, and made it 50 meters yesterday! ( woohoo) pathetic i know :)

So i know my breathing is one of my limited factors. i was attempting the skating drills, and even this one --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0ePIQb7bXw

No matter what i do, i cannot stay on the surface in this manner (total immersion or this guy Robb)

I have tried the following:

1. Push armpit down more
2. variable degrees - 90-45
3. push forearm/hand shoulder in different positions

it would "SEEM" that if i can do this drill well, it would in a major way help my breathing, because i could significantly slow down

Sidenote: ive started bi-lateral breathing as well...it actullay seems easier to catch a breath on 3rd stroke...(not sure if thats a good thing to continue at this point)


Thank you all in advance










Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachBobM (Post 59145)
The two things that affect whether your hips are sinking are:

1) Your head position: Have you relaxed your head into the water with your nose pointing down?

2) The position of your leading arm: You want the wrist of your leading arm to be lower than your shoulder and you want your palm turned down and your fingertips angled slightly down. You need to experiment with how low your leading arm needs to be to bring your hips up so they're level with your shoulders.

In freestyle, you want to be going back and forth between your skate position on one side and your skate position on the other side. The switch drills in the TI training materials (spearswitch, swingswitch, overswitch) are designed to teach you to coordinate your body roll with your armstroke and recovery, and to perfect your catch. A lack of body roll doesn't really create drag - you will just end up relying purely on arm strength instead of drawing on your core body to power your stroke.

Breathing every 3rd stroke is definitely better than breathing every other stroke, provided that you are getting enough air, since this will force you to alternate breathing sides, thereby making your stroke more symmetric. If you find that you're not getting enough air that way, another alternative is to breathe on your right side on one length of the pool and breathe on your left side on the next length, and so on.


Bob


ti97 06-05-2016 05:19 PM

you might try a pair of short fins to get you moving a little faster....use a compact, gentle kick and keep your head in the water looking at the pool bottom directly below your head....

roll to breathe -- do not lift your head.....

when you roll for air, you will be looking backwards and up -- not looking forward....

your head and spine need to remain relaxed and aligned -- no tension

Tom Pamperin 06-06-2016 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59401)
UPDATES!

While not great, i am making it 25 meters at about 50% less tiredness, and made it 50 meters yesterday! ( woohoo) pathetic i know :)

Not pathetic at all--I have a friend who says that an expert is nothing but a beginner with experience. I vividly remember not being able to complete a single 25y length when I started. Keep at it!

jboosted92 06-11-2016 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 59451)
Not pathetic at all--I have a friend who says that an expert is nothing but a beginner with experience. I vividly remember not being able to complete a single 25y length when I started. Keep at it!

UPDATES!!

1. My wife took a video....very eye opening... (having trouble uploading...here)


1a. I am definitely Scissor kicking when breathing. i 100% never felt it...saw it in video. Any tips/drills for fixing this?

1B. im still struggling with skating... i sink i sink i sink...I try all sorts of ways. Could it be too much tension in my upper back? i have a developed upper back ( body building) and i notice when i reach arm striaight up in air, alot of tightness. Could the tightness in the skating, cause me to sink? is it my kick? looking for sliver of hope on this one :)

CoachBobM 06-12-2016 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59535)
UPDATES!!

1. My wife took a video....very eye opening... (having trouble uploading...here)


1a. I am definitely Scissor kicking when breathing. i 100% never felt it...saw it in video. Any tips/drills for fixing this?

You might try vertical kicking with quarter turns: Go into water that is over your head, fold your arms across your chest, and then keep your head above water by kicking. Periodically do quarter turns, first in one direction and then in the other, to learn how your kick coordinates with your body roll.

Quote:

1B. im still struggling with skating... i sink i sink i sink...I try all sorts of ways. Could it be too much tension in my upper back? i have a developed upper back ( body building) and i notice when i reach arm striaight up in air, alot of tightness. Could the tightness in the skating, cause me to sink? is it my kick? looking for sliver of hope on this one :)
Relaxing is definitely a factor in achieving balance! We've had a number of people come to this forum over the years who were struggling with balance, and it hasn't been uncommon for them to report at some point "Today I relaxed, and suddenly everything worked!"


Bob

jboosted92 06-14-2016 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachBobM (Post 59537)
You might try vertical kicking with quarter turns: Go into water that is over your head, fold your arms across your chest, and then keep your head above water by kicking. Periodically do quarter turns, first in one direction and then in the other, to learn how your kick coordinates with your body roll.



Relaxing is definitely a factor in achieving balance! We've had a number of people come to this forum over the years who were struggling with balance, and it hasn't been uncommon for them to report at some point "Today I relaxed, and suddenly everything worked!"


Bob

Thanks Bob...

STill trying the skating, but having trouble.

Also, im looking for resources on swimming, but even when i do a good job of turning my chin for Air, the AIR feels rushed, as if im not getting enough...and i can "Feel " the tension when i put my head back down....:(

jboosted92 06-15-2016 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jboosted92 (Post 59575)
Thanks Bob...

STill trying the skating, but having trouble.

Also, im looking for resources on swimming, but even when i do a good job of turning my chin for Air, the AIR feels rushed, as if im not getting enough...and i can "Feel " the tension when i put my head back down....:(


back and forth :(

seems when i get better at breathing, i notice other issues in my stroke.... today, my braething was better, but i felt tension ( maybe not enough body roll).... even when i have a "good" breathing lap ( maybe a 4/10 or 5/10 quality), i still feel tired....

i try balance drills in between....but still "Working" too hard, in my opinion....hmmm stumped

keithbowden 07-23-2016 08:57 PM

I'm new to swimming and downloaded the TI DVD's to self coach. Not sure if the following is of any use to you but...

When you say you have tried "Balance Drills" what do you actually mean?
I'm new to swimming but I plan a pool session of 45 minutes as follows:

1. 15 mins (approx) of superman glide but I don't push off the wall.
I stand in 4 foot of water. Position hands out in front of me under the water surface with my hands submerged under the water, approximately, at waist height. (This will be the same position my hands will be in when I am lying flat on the water, i.e. with my head facing down towards the bottom of the pool I can just catch my thumbs out of the corner of my eyes - I know now head and hands are correctly positioned). I push gently off the bottom, end up horizontal as above and a dolphin flick of the legs just to get my entire body to stretch out. I try maintain this while exhaling slowly from the nose. This can be anywhere from 3 - 7 seconds long. I do this repeatedly but it is in my mind all the time to RELAX.

2. 15 mins (approx) of using off (similar hands as above) wait 2-3 seconds for body to pop up (water pushes me up - buoyancy) to the surface and THEN begin stroking. I stroke with my left arm first and then while the right arm is recovering I try and incorporate a breath. This involves looking at the side of the pool and seeing it. I'll do this on both sides. I continue another 2 strokes to ensure I am full exhaled and then stand up.

3. 15 mins (approx) I now try and incorporate the above efforts into swimming a length. Then I wait 20 - 30 seconds to make sure I'm fresh again and repeat same. Towards the end of this 15 mins I find I am getting less tired and breathless and can do the lengths more comfortably. (I believe this is just that my technique is improving bit by bit)


I found, for myself anyway, I had to be very disciplined and focused. Essentially, not be concerned about what anyone else is doing in the pool, what's going on elsewhere just repeatedly keep trying. I was hard on myself initially but then something just registered that I had to be patient - Rome wasn't built in a day kind of thing. i also found that I had to relook at the DVD's (at least 50 times now) as there was always something I missed!


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