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andyinnorway
08-03-2012, 05:21 PM
Today was the day and we were lucky enough to join the other 17,496 people in the aquatic centre to watch amongst others Sun Yang's 1500m qualification.

He was beyond awesome.

Sun went in the last of 4 qualifications and so had the benefit of seeing the previous fastest qualifier was 14.50

He strolled through 32 lengths at 26.5SPL! and posted 14.48

The precision of each length was even more apparent at the live event compared to the TV. He starts his underwater stroke just out of the 5m line and by the time it comes around for his first spear entry he is nearly at 9m.

He crosses the 25m line halfway through stroke 12 each lap and then at the end he completes stroke 26 followed by his funny quick half stroke into the tumble.

My guess would be that he train with a TT and bases a length on 30SPL including turns and push off. i.e. 1.5 for push off, 1 for underwater stroke, 26 normal, 0.5 funny one, and 1 for turn. His 26.5SPL is in comparison to the others averaging 38-42.

Its a world class advertisement for the benefits of a TI approach.

Its was a brilliant experience and the whole setup of the London games was stunning, the park is great, the transport all worked without queuing, we had a seat in a restaurant for lunch and the noise and atmosphere inside the aquatic centre was deafening.

Only wish I was going to the remaining sessions.

Looking forward to tomorrow night, based on form today it looked like China, Tunisia and Canada for the medals.

Also as an aside we noticed that only the top 4 or 5 swimmers had an even stroke, the others had a very pronounced shorter/quicker stroke on the breathing side. (see the mexican who won heat 1 for the best example of this if its on youtube).

CharlesCouturier
08-03-2012, 05:50 PM
Do you know if Paltrinieri qualified to be there tomorrow? I'm not even sure if he's in London 2012. What I do know is that he posted 14:49 LCM recently, which would have been enough to not only qualify, but potentially push Ryan (the Canadian) off the Podium...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OV_10f1qv_U

Richardsk
08-03-2012, 06:16 PM
Herewith line-up for final:

01 JAEGER Connor 14:57.56 (heat 3 , 3rd)
02 FOGG Daniel 14:56.12 (heat 2, 2nd)
03 COCHRANE Ryan 14:49.31 (heat 3, 1st)
04 SUN Yang 14:43.25 (heat 4, 1st)
05 MELLOULI Oussama 14:46.23 (heat 4, 2nd)
06 PALTRINIERI Gregorio 14:50.11 (heat 2, 1st)
07 PARK Taehwan 14:56.89 (heat 3, 2nd)
08 SAWRYMOWICZ Mateusz 14:57.59 (heat 2, 3rd)

Gemmell in heat 4 was unlucky to miss out with 14:59.05


It looks like Sun for gold and Mellouli for silver, with bronze to Paltrinieri, Cochrane, Fogg or Park - or maybe even Jaeger or Sawrymowicz.

Who knows, though? Sun looks like a certainty for gold. His heat was masterful. Paltrinieri and Cochrane also looked very good in their heats. Mellouli could have been taking it easy in heat 4 and letting Sun do all the hard work but Sun made it look easy and was hardly breathing heavily at all at the end..

swim2Bfree
08-03-2012, 09:42 PM
Interesting commentary from the Australian Olympic swimmer Nicole Livingstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Livingstone) during the NBC live feed of the penultimate heat of the 1500m prelims:

[Nicole Livingstone] I just wanted to point out, underwater, Ryan Cochrane's kick... He's kept that 6 beat kick going... So it's quite a fast kick for 1500. Once upon a time they used to just drag their feet with a very slow two beat kick for balance, and that really changed with [Kieren] Perkins and Glen Housman from Australia, trying to bring in a six beat kick.

[Bruce McAvaney] Do you think that's an effective way of swimming?

[NL] Yeah, I do. I think the way the boys have changed the stroke of the 1500, by using that faster kick, it just makes sense. Salnikov and those guys, when i raced the 1500... it was very much about a fast kick in and out of the walls, and just the floating two beat kick.

[BM] Times have got quicker and techniques have changed.

Rincewind
08-03-2012, 10:13 PM
I dont know if anybody noticed, but even Ryan Lochte was also looking very TI-esque in the warm down pool getting ready for the 200 IM.

JC_Yang
08-04-2012, 03:24 AM
Interesting commentary from the Australian Olympic swimmer Nicole Livingstone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicole_Livingstone) during the NBC live feed of the penultimate heat of the 1500m prelims:

[Nicole Livingstone] I just wanted to point out, underwater, Ryan Cochrane's kick... He's kept that 6 beat kick going... So it's quite a fast kick for 1500. Once upon a time they used to just drag their feet with a very slow two beat kick for balance, and that really changed with [Kieren] Perkins and Glen Housman from Australia, trying to bring in a six beat kick.

[Bruce McAvaney] Do you think that's an effective way of swimming?

[NL] Yeah, I do. I think the way the boys have changed the stroke of the 1500, by using that faster kick, it just makes sense. Salnikov and those guys, when i raced the 1500... it was very much about a fast kick in and out of the walls, and just the floating two beat kick.

[BM] Times have got quicker and techniques have changed.

Sun Yang will disprove his comment tonight(hence once again prove the correctness of TI), completely.

swim2Bfree
08-04-2012, 03:51 AM
Sun Yang will disprove his comment tonight(hence once again prove the correctness of TI), completely.

Sun Yang has never heard of TI.

The Aussie commentators were equally (if not more) complimentary of Sun in the subsequent heat. And that's kind of the point: Cochrane has awesome technique. Ous Mellouli (the #2 seed) has awesome technique. Sun has awesome technique. But they each swim a bit differently, because they each have different bodies, different relative strengths and weaknesses.

I have no doubt Sun will win gold in the 1500 - he's a faster swimmer than the others. I'm more interested in whether he breaks the 14:30 barrier. Whatever happens, it proves nothing. Just another data point that people like you will over-interpret.

Why can't we just appreciate his greatness, without needing it to justify an entire belief system?

PS: Did you watch the women's 800? What did that "prove"?

JC_Yang
08-04-2012, 07:44 AM
I don't mean Sun Yang know TI, he probably doesn't know it at all.
In the aspect of pure science/logic, his performance prove nothing. A single sample CAN'T prove anything. I don't need someone to tell me what is science/logic. Don't be so serious about the 'disprove'.

Back to the topic, you and me are now talking about top class swimming athletes competition, they all have the best fitness among us, the variants are negligible, I suggest. If you don't mind this suggestion, do you think their different techniques might be key to the result is a plausible reasoning?
Of course, without scientific measurement, e.g some analyst from all data of them by scientist, OR try to train them three in the same ways, all in Cochrane style, or all in Ous Mellouli style, or all in Sun's style, no one can tell a more precise version of the story.

I think you're the man who over-interpret things. I don't read the Australian's comment fully, I just assume the piece you post is a fragment, otherwise I don't know how to interpret it as the message you bring up here.

The Aussie commentators were equally (if not more) complimentary of Sun in the subsequent heat. And that's kind of the point: Cochrane has awesome technique. Ous Mellouli (the #2 seed) has awesome technique. Sun has awesome technique. But they each swim a bit differently, because they each have different bodies, different relative strengths and weaknesses.

I haven't watched the women 800, so no comments.

Last but not least, even the most logical centric science--Math, is not solely about demonstrative reasoning(though the final representation is), plausible reasoning play a big part in it, let alone the other subjects.

CharlesCouturier
08-04-2012, 04:59 PM
Back to the topic, you and me are now talking about top class swimming athletes competition, they all have the best fitness among us, the variants are negligible, I suggest. If you don't mind this suggestion, do you think their different techniques might be key to the result is a plausible reasoning? Over 1500m, the technique, ie the vehicle choice makes a big difference.

But just like it happens to be the case for less technical disciplines, such as endurance running for instance, variants in fitness among top class swimming athletes are *not* negligible in my opinion.

I am not crazy about Cochrane's technique. He does create massive drag, does break the balance very severely hence the *need* for a 6-beat clocked kick. He obviously relies heavily on his extraordinary high stroke rate, which ain't a bad horse to bet on. I just wish the final product was more refined...

So regardless of what these experts may have commented, I definitely wish he (and his coach) had chosen a bit of a more streamlined vehicle. It's even allowed to believe that he could match, or outperformed Yang on the fitness side. I base my judgment on the fact that if he manages to battle for Bronze with this vehicle, what things could have been if using a better vehicle.

In other words I perceive Cochrane as a fitness freak that can perform miracle swims in spite of a perfectible technique.

CharlesCouturier
08-04-2012, 07:07 PM
He did ok finally. I still question the choice of a systematic bilateral breathing pattern early into the race, but hey. Silver isn't bad.

dougalt
08-04-2012, 07:13 PM
Hey! I'm just a neophyte (needed a bit over 48 minutes to complete an ocean mile swim two hours ago), but Sun Yang's technique sure looked like everything I am attempting to achieve by following the TI protocols.
Especially when I looked at some of the other lanes and saw some of the thrashing and body twisting going on in some places.
Sun sure made it look easy!

Richardsk
08-04-2012, 09:38 PM
Here, thanks to swimswam, are Sun's splits

http://swimswam.com/2012/08/sun-yangs-olympic-1500-splits-world-record-progression/

nicka
08-04-2012, 09:52 PM
Does anyone know where it is available to watch online??

Damn time difference :(

Nick

JC_Yang
08-05-2012, 02:09 AM
In the interview, Sun clearly claim that he's been badly disturbed by the launch accident, his mood is deeply influenced. Otherwise he will push the record forward further ahead, because he feel swimming so relax in this game, he hasn't full powered on. He says there's still big room for improvement.

If you know Chinese, watch it here
http://v.qq.com/cover/k/kui2bqyqa38c9ra.html?vid=G0010OdTUkH

borate
08-05-2012, 04:20 AM
If you know Chinese, watch it here
http://v.qq.com/cover/k/kui2bqyqa38c9ra.html?vid=G0010OdTUkH

But, even if you know Chinese, if you're not in China this is what you may see - translated from Chinese:

"Sorry, invalid IP address, video can not be played. If you are user in Chinese mainland, please click here."

JC_Yang
08-05-2012, 05:05 AM
A proxy in China mainland might work.

But here you go, I've upload it to youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YS9D6JZiZM

terry
08-06-2012, 06:39 PM
I am not crazy about Cochrane's technique. He does create massive drag, does break the balance very severely hence the *need* for a 6-beat clocked kick. ...

So regardless of what these experts may have commented, I definitely wish he (and his coach) had chosen a bit of a more streamlined vehicle..

One cannot doubt that Sun was well trained, having swum with Grant Hackett's coach Denis Cotterill on Australia's Gold Coast for the past two years. While it's clear that Sun is the most "TI-like" among elite distance swimmers today, we wouldn't claim he's a TI swimmer. Rather, we're delighted that the world's best distance swimmer is an exemplar for technique that prioritizes streamlining over propulsion.

And the key question, which Charles alludes to, is what's the counter-argument? I.E. Why would you not strive to improve streamlining, given that it results in converting more energy (a limited and non-renewable--at least during the race--resource) into locomotion?

Sun Yang makes a far more eloquent argument in favor of drag reduction, relaxation, and overall fluency, than anyone in TI ever could. In fact the most persuasive such argument since Alexander Popov.

terry
08-06-2012, 06:46 PM
A proxy in China mainland might work.

But here you go, I've upload it to youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YS9D6JZiZM

To Western ears the interviewer sounds angry. I know he's not that it's just a conversational tone or mode. I've heard it before. While in Hong Kong last year, when TI Coach Tang Siew Kwan, my travel companion, was giving our destination to a taxi driver, and then they would discuss the best route, it always sounded to my ears like an argument.

Then we went to Bangkok, where --though I understood no more -- all conversation was soft and mellifluous. Mark of a Buddhist country?

swim2Bfree
08-07-2012, 04:01 AM
we wouldn't claim he's a TI swimmer. Rather, we're delighted that the world's best distance swimmer is an exemplar for technique that prioritizes streamlining over propulsion.

How does one determine whether a particular swimmer's technique prioritizes streamlining over propulsion, or propulsion over streamlining, or propulsion and streamlining equally? Clearly, the fastest swimmers do both extremely well, regardless of any superficial appearance of "effortlessness."

And the key question, which Charles alludes to, is what's the counter-argument? I.E. Why would you not strive to improve streamlining, given that it results in converting more energy (a limited and non-renewable--at least during the race--resource) into locomotion?

There is no counter-argument. It's a straw-man. I've never heard anyone argue that drag reduction isn't important in swimming.

JC_Yang
08-07-2012, 09:43 AM
To Western ears the interviewer sounds angry. I know he's not that it's just a conversational tone or mode. I've heard it before. While in Hong Kong last year, when TI Coach Tang Siew Kwan, my travel companion, was giving our destination to a taxi driver, and then they would discuss the best route, it always sounded to my ears like an argument.

Then we went to Bangkok, where --though I understood no more -- all conversation was soft and mellifluous. Mark of a Buddhist country?

The interviewer was working in typical CCTV style, maybe he wanted to emphasize his words in the noisy environment and show how he was excited at that moment. I dislike this sort of tone, too. The taxi driver you met in Hong Kong probably share the similar working environment, I guess. So it probably is the life style difference between HK and Bangkok that you heard. Some tips: the conversation you heard in Hong Kong was in Cantonese, it's a tongue very different from Mandarin. Character pronunciation, tones, verbs, sentence structure... It's a different language to Mandarin in the aspect of linguistics.

JC_Yang
08-07-2012, 10:08 AM
@swim2Bfree:
I didn't see terry say 'effortlessness'.

Well, you're totally right in term of pure science. No one can say which technique is more prioritized by the top swimmers over the others just with the video.
Then how about this suggestion:
Stop analyst it without adequate equipments, and just try to mimic their strokes, all the top ones styles, and see which one is most pleasing. Even you're the one quest for speed mostly, any one of them can satisfy you, can't it? So why not choose an 'easy'/less fatigue one to follow? This is what I want to enjoy graceful swimming, not as an athlete. Mimic it is much easier than scientific analyst them accurately.

Richardsk
08-07-2012, 10:12 AM
Hello JC_Yang

Is Cantonese Sun's first language? Most Chinese here in the UK speak Cantonese but one often hears Mandarin in the streets these days - probably mainly from students at the local university (Aberystwyth).

I have made a few efforts to learn Chinese, so far without much success. Enough, though, to be fairly sure that the interview was not in Mandarin.

China will no doubt do even better at the 2016 Olympics, and if Sun continues on his present path, who knows what amazing swims he will produce?

JC_Yang
08-07-2012, 03:14 PM
Hello JC_Yang

Is Cantonese Sun's first language? Most Chinese here in the UK speak Cantonese but one often hears Mandarin in the streets these days - probably mainly from students at the local university (Aberystwyth).

I have made a few efforts to learn Chinese, so far without much success. Enough, though, to be fairly sure that the interview was not in Mandarin.

China will no doubt do even better at the 2016 Olympics, and if Sun continues on his present path, who knows what amazing swims he will produce?

Hi, Richardsk.
Neither Mandarin nor Cantonese is Sun's 1st language, but he can speak Mandarin as well as his 1st language, yet know nothing about Cantonese.
Cantonese is mainly spoken by Chinese from Canton(nowadays called GuangDong), Hong Kong and Macau. Sun's hometown is in Hangzhou, somewhere not far away from Shanghai. And that interview is purely in Mandarin. You should double check it.

Chinese language probably set quite high a hurdle for people whose native language are any latin alphabet based languages, because it's based on age-old continue evolving logograph character set. Character is the unit of this language, especially in classical Chinese. The meaning of one character can be very dense and full. But learning a language, no matter which one, share same set of principle, read more, speak more, write more and listen more. Other than really useful tips about learning Chinese, I'd recommend you learn traditional Chinese and traditional Chinese characters, the real elegant part of it. Read books written by Taiwan or at least Hong Kong writers is preferred, and classical poetry. During the colonial period, several Hong Kong governor are sinologist, try to read some of their publication to get a better sense of Chinese culture. When choose dialect, I highly recommend Cantonese over Mandarin, it can bring you much more pleasing tones and the phase change when reading classical poetry, you can sense the true amazing part of Chinese.

I believe Sun can continue improve, but don't care whether China can do better in the next Olympic. Because the quantity of medals do NOT represent the quality of general Chinese people's sports activities and physical conditions. Google something like 'How Chinese train athletes' can reveal the underneath truth. And the seldom mentioned opposite side of the story is, peoples other than those choose kids get very small amount and expensive resource(stadiums, pools, fields) to enjoy sports. They get little to none physical exercise.

CharlesCouturier
08-07-2012, 03:37 PM
One cannot doubt that Sun was well trained, having swum with Grant Hackett's coach Denis Cotterill on Australia's Gold Coast for the past two years. While it's clear that Sun is the most "TI-like" among elite distance swimmers today, we wouldn't claim he's a TI swimmer. Rather, we're delighted that the world's best distance swimmer is an exemplar for technique that prioritizes streamlining over propulsion.


I have two questions, if you have time.

What's missing in his stroke to qualify it as being TI approved?

Could the TI Freestyle stroke be accelerated in excess of sub 60sec per 100m (ie, sub 15min 1500m performance)? For instance, how much room does TI make for say, the 4B kickers of this world? (Hackett, Yang et al.)?

swim2Bfree
08-07-2012, 05:26 PM
we're delighted that the world's best distance swimmer is an exemplar for technique that prioritizes streamlining over propulsion.

This comment is unfair to the winners of this week's 10km Open Water event, who have at least equally legitimate claims to the title "world's best distance swimmer."

Needless to say I'm looking forward to Terry's analysis of these races.

Richardsk
12-06-2012, 08:46 AM
This spammer is surely one of the most annoying so far.


PS This is now irrelevant because the spammer has been removed.

CharlesCouturier
12-07-2012, 02:43 AM
This comment is unfair to the winners of this week's 10km Open Water event, who have at least equally legitimate claims to the title "world's best distance swimmer." I tend to agree here. 10k is distance.

1500 is still distance, but very short long distance ;-)

Open water is open water. It calls for flexibility in the stroke, to better adapt.

I would LOVE to see a 1500 race in rough condition opposing Yang and Ryan. I would LOVE to see this!

Who wins? (woooooo what an inflammable question)

I bet 2 Million (small change for guy like me) on Ryan... by..... 9 seconds.

andyinnorway
12-07-2012, 10:45 AM
I tend to agree here. 10k is distance.

1500 is still distance, but very short long distance ;-)

Open water is open water. It calls for flexibility in the stroke, to better adapt.

I would LOVE to see a 1500 race in rough condition opposing Yang and Ryan. I would LOVE to see this!

Who wins? (woooooo what an inflammable question)

I bet 2 Million (small change for guy like me) on Ryan... by..... 9 seconds.

Would you change that bet if you made it US dollars with Sun Yang and gave him a year to prepare?

CharlesCouturier
12-07-2012, 04:14 PM
Would you change that bet if you made it US dollars with Sun Yang and gave him a year to prepare?

Hmmm, US dollar is worth little less than CDN, but I'd still be up for it (even though I'd loose in currency exchange :P)

andyinnorway
12-07-2012, 11:42 PM
Hmmm, US dollar is worth little less than CDN, but I'd still be up for it (even though I'd loose in currency exchange :P)

I get your point that Ryan's stroke is more suited to choppy water, but Yang is a monster athlete so I think if you gave him time to train, he would adapt and conquer. :)

Richardsk
12-08-2012, 11:14 AM
A 10k final in real open water - not a duck pond, but one with waves, and with Cochrane, Sun, Mellouli, Lurz and a few others would be very entertaining. I would not be prepared to bet on any of them.

I do think that Sun is a dyed-in-the-wool pool swimmer, though, but who knows what he might do with suitable motivation and training?

If he can still be at the top of his game for the 2016 Olympics and if I can still be there to watch him on line, it will be a real treat. I'm seriously thinking of travelling to Scotland to see the Commonwealth Games in 2014, when Cochrane will no doubt be swimming for Canada.